Herbert Graf wrote:

> On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 17:02 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>> Very odd indeed, once you start listening to it with a "grammar ear". I
>> never liked it. Whenever reasonably possible, I use the more informal "du"
>> (2nd person singular for normal people :)

> I do find your comment interesting though. I've never liked using "sie",
> it just "sounds" a little off to me. 

I know what you are talking about. There are many constructs in languages
that sound normal to the native user because they're so used to them, but
to someone learning the language they sound odd, because they are
grammatically or otherwise odd constructs. Such a construct is this German
"Sie". It gets even odder when you consider that you also can use "Sie" to
address (formally) a group of people. In this case it is functionally 2nd
person plural, and still gets treated grammar-wise as 3rd person plural,
just like the 2nd person singular formal. 

A bit like the old servant address "he can retire now" -- just formulated
as "they can retire now"... kind of a mixture between the 3rd person
servants used to be addressed in English (IIRC... it's been a long time)
with the pluralis majestatis. 

> But I've been told that you should NEVER use "du", except for family and
> close friends. What's you're opinion on using "du"? Would addressing a
> waiter with "du" be a huge taboo to you?

I'd say if you are not able to "read" subtle and largely region-dependent
and group-dependent signs, you're definitely safer with "Sie" until you
hear what others do. Then you follow.

For example in rural Bavaria and in bars with a young or otherwise informal
crowd, the "du" is quite common. ("Mare, bring ma no a Bier!") However, the
formality of rural areas is changing and customs of city (and more formal)
people are penetrating. 

I once worked for a client in the US, owned by a German. When I talked to
the German boss in English, I of course used the common "you" and his first
name, like everywhere else. And for all I could tell, he did enjoy this
informality. In Germany, at least in the circles I frequent, first name and
"du" is synonymous: as long as you're using "Sie", you're using the last
name (as in "Herr Somesuch"). But this guy didn't feel comfortable to be
addressed in German with "du", even though I continued to use his first
name in German, so I used the first name together with "Sie" in German.
Quite unusual for me. So you always have to feel it out; there's no clear
rule. (He was not from Bavaria :)

> As a concept this sort of thing is difficult for me. English is very
> "neutral" in many ways. You address everybody as "you". 

Maybe compare it to using first name or "Mr./Ms. last name". This is also
not always an easy decision, and it appears to me to be similar to the "du"
and "Sie" in German. My impression is that at least in the USA the first
name is more common than the "du" in Germany, but in principle it is a
similar situation.

> A window isn't female, a house isn't male, everything is neuter. 

Actually, in German both of these are neuter, too :)

> Learning french in school was always very difficult for me since there
> were so many things like this which didn't seem to have any reason for
> being. 

I'm not sure how that is in German (you know, I just "know" it :), but
while English has some things going for it in terms of being easy to learn,
pronunciation is pure hell. As a non-native speaker, even after many many
years, I still don't know how to pronounce a new word that I've never heard
before. I don't have that problem in Portuguese. After a few weeks, I could
read (pronounce, not necessarily understand) pretty much any text. With a
thick accent, but otherwise correctly. 

Gerhard

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