"Russell McMahon" wrote:
> There are various theories on what causes the lift. While the large
> part is undoubtedly caused by easily enough understood atmosphere
> related physical effects there are claims, allegedly based on
> experimental results,  that there is a component that exists in vacuum
> conditions. I have not yet seen that convincingly proven or disproven
> anywhere (but it may well have been).
>
> This sort of thing is such good ground for the fringe phenomena
> enthusiasts that it would be hard to convince them that vacuum effects
> don't exist. However, dismissing such claims without due cause could
> mean missing out on something extremely valuable indeed. eg a massless
> reaction drive of even extremely modest power levels could greatly
> improve station-keeping abilities for coms satellites. And would allow
> a craft in low orbit to "climb out" of earth's (or other) gravity
> wells given enough time. It would be a shame to miss such a device's
> existence due to arrogant assumption and be limited to such mundane
> things as Casimir effect devices instead.

Well, I hope that in the event that I am proven wrong, my arrogance will be 
forgiven on the grounds that (1) I admitted that I have no first-hand 
experience and (2) I did say "AFAIK"! ;)

I have a strong feeling (it will have to do, for lack of solid evidence) 
that at least 99% of the lift is produced by the airflow. Those of you who 
own Ionic Breeze (or similarly-looking cheap imitations) will probably agree 
with me that the airflow produced by the device is substantial, despite the 
fact that there are no moving parts, only two oppositely charged grids.

"Sean Schouten" wrote:
> Have a look at this (if you're really interested, I recomend turning that
> whole website upside down!):
>
> http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/vacuum/index.htm

Look at the first experiment. He places a POSITIVELY CHARGED electrode above 
the lifter that is connected to GROUND. Kind of like when you comb your hair 
and then use the comb to lift small pieces of paper.

IMHO, the experiment where the lifter is suspended by a string does not 
provide conclusive evidence of the "antigravitational force", either. How 
can we be sure that the force is not produced by charged ions? The force 
required to cause the suspended lifter to turn is minute.

[similar criticisms of other experiments omitted]

Now, what *would* convince me, is if Mr. Naudin placed the whole setup in a 
vacuum, and it worked there. Yet I could not find such experiment on his 
website.

I hope you will forgive me for remaining a skeptic.

HOWEVER

    - In the interests of science, I encourage anyone with enough time on 
their hands, and proper equipment, to prove me wrong. I will even go as far 
as offering to make a small donation toward the experiment, and hosting the 
results of said experiment on my website.
    - I think we should ask the OP to better explain the purpose of his 
original question. Is Mike mostly interested in the theoretical side of the 
phenomenon, or the practical goal of building a better lifter?

Best regards,

Vitaliy 

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