I said:
>   So, current oil prices are not market prices. To link oil, war and
>> money is a straw man attack. The moment you use force to modify a price, 
>> the free-market vanishes.


Vitaly said:
>I agree with each one of the three statements above (taken separately), but 
>I don't understand what is your point.


        It seems to me (but I may be wrong) that James goes from oil to
money and from money to war. 

        Oil companies get rich - once they are rich, they use money to buy
violence. So, money is the root of all evil.

        That is, IMO, a misrepresentation of facts.


James asks :
>But what does the money represent? Ownership of property? 

        Earned money (as opposed to stolen) represents services rendered.
You did something for Peter and got paid - so now you can offer your 'money'
in the market to get a service back. Isn't that fair ?

        If you build a house with your own hands, is the house yours ? 

        If you work as an engineer, get paid, and use the money to get a
house built, is  the house yours ? 

        Now, if you don't 'believe' that whatever you produce is yours, then
I must stop arguing because this will surely turn into what you call
'religious arguments'

>Again, "who can destroy a thing, owns a thing"

        Yes, in a very restricted way. You can destroy your neighbour's
house. Do you then own it ? Can you use it/sell it/morgage it ? I don't
think so. You can merely destroy the property of your neighbour. You can not
transfer it to you! If you kill him, you won't get his life transfered to
you. More likely, you'd be killed in turn...
        
        You seem to be arguing that violence is all powerful...it is not. It
can only destroy life and wealth. It obiously can't create them.


>As I said, in the end, it is Ug or Stalin, or Mao, or Hitler who owns it all.

        1) How many people can ONE man, unaided, kill ? So, Stalin was evil,
but what about the soldiers who made it possible for him to rule ? It's the
same point again. Who is guilty/guiltier ? The one who gives the 'order' ?
Or the one who physically commits the crime ? 
        
        2) Notice that you cited the 'leaders' of communist or nationalist,
socialist societies. Those societies considered private property, money, and
individual freedom as the most wicked things on earth...and acted accordingly!


>In a system with money, we agree that the ownership is divided up among
>us all according to how much we have in the bank.

        Yes, IF it's not 'stolen' money. Otherwise, ownership is a scam.

>How we spend our money decides who rules.

        Yes, but our 'ruling' consist merely in, say, buying a computer
instead of a car. If everybody prefers computers to cars, then car
manufacturers go belly up. So, have we 'destroyed' the car manufacturers ?
No. Car manufactureres were not useful for their customers, so they had to
give up that activity and do something else.

        Now, car manufacturers can surely declare a war on their customers,
go to the govt. and ask for subsidies....and if you don't pay taxes (wich go
to the car manufactureres in the form of subsidies), the police shoots you.
A very real civil war.


>To ensure that our "gentleman's agreement" remains in place, we must all be
>ready to pay Ug (police, etc...)

        I don't think so. The police is always on the side of the govt. Take
a look at how property is transfered via taxes and tell me if you really own
what you earn or if 50% of your income 'belongs'/is taken to/by the police.

        Some people may behave 'well' because of fear, but fear is not the
basis of society.

>Ah well... Perhaps this is becoming a religious argument?        

        I hope not! :)
        
        I apologize as this message turned out quite longer than I intended to.
        
        And sorry for discusing 'political' matters, but it's as usual
Russell's fault...:)
        

Cheers,
Juan.




        


        





 
        



        


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