Using a JDM programmer (Olimex PIC-PG2C) with IC-Prog 1.05C and a "real" serial port on a 1.3 Ghz Athalon under Win98. (with the chip in the socket on the programmer, except for the '675- that used jumper wires to a breadboard with no external circuitry) 16F876A empty - 15 seconds program / 15 seconds verify 16F876A - 20 seconds program / 20 seconds verify 16F88 empty - 13 seconds program / 7 seconds verify 16F88 - 13 seconds program / 10 seconds verify 12F675 empty - 14 seconds program / 4 seconds verify 12F675 - 31 seconds program / 4 seconds verify (the only '252 I have handy is the LF version - not sure if that would skew the results or not) 18LF252 empty - 47 seconds program / 27 seconds verify 18LF252 - 49 seconds program / 29 seconds verify I also wanted to compare against a bootloader. I tried with bloader / screamer from Sparkfun but it first tests the hex file for reset vector compliance. Since the test files were blank and random it would not program them. For some idea of comparison I tried a program I've been working on. 16F877A - JDM programmer - 21 seconds program / 12 seconds verify Same file, same chip, bloader / screamer v1.7 from sparkfun, 4Mhz 10 seconds program / no verify -Denny -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist