> One can visualise a world where pleasure was > universally given and received in all its many forms without stigma, > adverse consequence or "penalty". But no amount of visualisation and > no amount of trying to make it so is going to make it happen in the > world we live in. Would it happen in my lifetime? No. John Lennon thought it was possible to happen eventually. Jesus apparently thought so. I'm inclined to agree. (While not a Christian, I think the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus was a real person, and in many ways an outstanding teacher.) > Even lesser > encounters involving sexuality and compulsion (even without any > physical contact) can have similar effects. In fact, three of the folk at our L1 were dealing with serious issues from rape, and one had been raped three times. You wouldn't believe the changes I saw in people over the course of that weekend. I was told before we went that a weekend there is like a year in therapy, and I would probably agree with that. I wish I could detail this further, because it is a very powerful story, but you'll just have to take my word for it. I was there, I saw it, I have no reason to lie to you. I remain in contact with these people, and as far as time has allowed us to tell, this was not a transient phenomenon. > While we may wish that people so affected would 'get over it' / 'pull > themselves together' / 'put it behind them and get on with life' / ... > the reality is that achieving this often proves difficult or > impossible. Not possible for all certainly, but certainly possible for some/most. I'm sorry that the agreement that I made prohibits me from disclosing everything that I saw there, but I also understand that without that security, what I saw would not have been possible. I don't think you can have those gains without that level of trust and openness. > Whether the drive to and stability of monogamous relationships is via > Olin's caveman / genetic-selection mechanism, long term social > structure instilled, God given or other is not an essential point. > (Those potential components are not mutually exclusive and some > combination of those and other things can be posited). I may not be presenting my side clearly enough. I'm not advocating swinging, but I AM advocating that those who don't should be at least minimally tolerant of those who do. Same for other lifestyle choices, religions, colors, etc. > "We observe that even if we are talking about strictly > recreational sex, and take precautions against STDs etc, that in the > vast majority of cases the result is that it harms relationships and > damages peoples lives if their partners have sex with someone else. Where do "we" observe this? I've done a fair bit of reading on this recently, and talked to a few people who swing, and they can point to peer reviewed studies by reputable universities that suggest otherwise. http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/swing/body.htm The claim was also made that swinging promotes disease, but the CDC seems to disagree. > If we deny that in most cases this causes "damage" then there is no > further point to the discussion. (All with this perspective should > contact Dave offlist and .. :-) ). I'm not sure what's being alluded to here, but I think I object. > - 'Free love' may well work for some but not for all and that it has a > net damaging effect on people involved. Individuals who move freely > and happily from partner to partner may in some cases be better off by > some measures but this is achieved at a cost to others and overall the > effect is negative. Polynesian society seems to have done pretty well with this model, up until the arrival of the Europeans, of course. > - Consequences, responsibilities and freedoms are unavoidably > inter-related. Any society or group who majors too much at one extreme > will languish. True. > - People are incredibly complex and fragile. While we would perhaps > wish it were otherwise, it's not. True, and I have a new appreciation for that. I was broken in ways I did not suspect, and by events that I would not have thought. But at least in my case, the repair was mostly done in the realization that these things were happening. > - Relationships are a significant part of "who we are" be they strong > and long term or transient or almost non-existent. Trying to do things > without accounting for this courts disaster (and it's a willing > suitor). Certainly. In the end, it's all about relationships. Everything else is window-dressing. > - People work best when trained to appreciate and manifest self > discipline / self control / self management and to appreciate that > there are interrelated boundaries, consequences, responsibilities etc Certainly > in every situation and that 'if it feels good, do it' is all too often > not what will maximise a fulfilling and productive life, like it or > nor on any given occasion. Do you think that this is what I'm advocating? > Long term gain and satisfaction will > usually need to take captive short term desires. Children need to be > 'taught', "controlled" (that one will cause reaction), set boundaries, > disciplined, guided, educated (brainwashed?)(give me a child to the > age of ...), in order that they may be able to take over where you > leave off and manage themselves in a way that makes their life > satisfying. Failure to instil self-management skills in your children > is a parenting failure. [[[Some children are more instillable than > others - that's how people are ;-) ]]]. Note that this isn't saying > that people should be brought up to be boring. "normal", > don;t-stand-out-in-a-crowd'ers. I'd favour quite the opposite. Complete agreement here. > - My body, and part of my brain which I haven't managed to beat sense > into yet, find Dave's premise attractive, (as long as its his partner > he's talking about and not mine). The part of my brain which has > learned its lesson knows that its a non starter. I'm sorry that your experiences have been so negative. There's a community of people, larger than the piclist by far, who would disagree with you. -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist