> I can program a full 16F88 in about 14 seconds, which is > twice as fast as a Picstart+ if I understood Jinx correctly More than 3x. I think the logic MC used has real glue in it Then again, the PS+ pre-dates flash PICs so you have to make some allowances. At the time I got mine the F84 had just been released, and it was a blessed relief to switch from EPROM / OTP Motorolas. I'm grateful to have had a programmer that's been of good service for many many years, but it's lagging behind the competition now -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist