Oh yes, you add US$5 (RS232 level shifter) and another US$5 (power supply) and will most likely get JDM right. To draw current from USB port will add some money as well (USB connector and cable cost quite a bit in USA but may be much cheaper elsewhere. It is amazing that people can get DSL router for free after rebate from Bstbuy and other places but need to pay US$10 to US$20 to get the network cable.) Why not add another US$5 (16F628 and some capacitors) to get a Wisp628 or better add another US$5 to US$10 to get a USB version of Wisp628 or similar (all price estimated )? Anyway I think the JDM argument is not of too much interests in this thread anymore. Now the question is about whether we need an ICD2 or similar debugging tools for dsPIC development. Price is not a real issue if another US$10 is spent. Cheapest serial only ICD2 can be built within budget of US$20 if time>>money IMHO without the supply and the serial cable (US$10?). The hobbyists can make use of the excellent Microchip sampling program to get DIP package of PIC16F876/877/876A/877A to get this done with less than US$15 or less IMHO on a breadboard, not including the power supply and serial cable. Then again there will be problems but you can fixed it by adding US$5 supply or to draw from USB port (USB connectors and cables cost money as well). May I ask some questions as the result of all these discussions. "Suppose you are an hobbyist who are interested in using higher-end 18F like 18F USB and dsPIC, are you willing to spend US$30 plus shipping for a debugger and programmer like a cheap serial only ICD2 clone after reading the benefits listed below? Are you willing to pay US$70 plus shipping for a full-blown and more robust USB/Serial ICD2 clone later for convenience? How long will you need serious debugging power provided by ICD2 after finished your first blinking a LED project with a higher-end 18F or dsPICs?" "The advantage of an ICD2 as a programmer is that it supports most Flash PICs including dsPICs." >From Olin's excellent post regading the advantages of debuggers. "1 - The big everwhelming advantage of ICD2 as a debugger is that you can single step your code, set break points, and look around at state without having to decide up front which limited state you are going to spit out at which limited set of circumstances. Other advantages: 2 - You don't have to write the code to send trace information somewhere, nor the code to either format it nicely in the PIC, or receive it with a special program which formats it for you to see. 3 - Just the existance of trace code can alter the problem you are trying to find. Other code may be moved around, the timing will be different, stack usage will be different, etc. Sometimes this will make the original symptom disappear, and sometimes it can introduce symptoms that are only due to the trace code in the first place. 4 - Trace code can require hardware resources that are already all in use, like extra pins, UART, etc. In short, debugging with a real debugger (ICE even better) is way more efficient than the equivalent of sprinkling PRINTF around, especially on a machine that doesn't have an OS and a notion of standard output." Regards, Xiaofan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Byron A Jeff" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.hardware.microcontrollers.pic Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [PIC] dsPIC for hobbyists > On Sun, Aug 28, 2005 at 08:35:09AM +0800, Chen Xiao Fan wrote: >> Hopefully you would apprecaite the advantage of >> real-time debug provided by ICD2/ICE2000/4000 >> after Olin's post. >> >> I agree that Starting PIC hobbyists may want to work with >> JDM first even though I still think Wisp628/EasyProg/Pickit2 >> is better. > > I think JDM has problems because it depends on RS232 voltages > to be proper. Simply adding a MAX232 and an external 5V > supply (from USB for example) would make a JDM style programmer > completely stable for virtually any flash part. Randy at > glitchbuster.com has MAX232s for $0.69 USD. Coupled with > $1.85 USD shipping, one can get started for under $5 USD. > >> However there are PIC hobbyists doing adavnced >> projects as well after finishing the blink-a-led project >> and ICD2 will serve them well for the higher-end 18F and >> dsPIC development. > > I think it's the difference between dipping a toe in the > pool and jumping in the deep end. Development isn't binary. > A novice could crank out a dozen projects before needing > serious debugging firepower. > > BAJ -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist