----- Original Message ----- From: "Byron A Jeff" To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [PIC] dsPIC for hobbyists > You keep espousing that argument, but I never see a real > justification as to why. Wouter has pointed out that cost > effective programmers have their place because they are > cost effective. The bootloader approach I discuss pretty > much demands an inexpensive programmer. Truthfully even > a homebuilt Wisp628 needs a cheap, easy to build programmer. Once the hobbyist has become serious enough to decide on a more complex programmer, the ICD2 starts to look like a very real choice. Sure, it's pricey compared to a Wisp, but you get a debugger, the ability to program 30F's, and -you- don't need to bootloader loader. > Now IIRC you've posted bootloaders (Chia I believe for the > dsPIC). Now if you have a BCD and a bootloader, then exactly > what does any of the three above bring to the table? I still haven't really seen the reason for a bootloader > By the way I'll answer the bring to the table question above. > The answer is that unfortunately Mchip has not seen fit to make > their entire line self programmable. Personally I find it > aggravating that parts like the 12F629 and 12F675 cannot be > configured in bootloader configurations. That means for ICSP > development that half your pins are being used as the interface > for programming durin development. Only for debugging. It's pretty rare that you don't have the flexibility to lightly load PGD/PGC. OK, on a few chips you can use !MCLR as an output if you don't need ICSP, but that's pretty unusual. On the dsPIC, you even have multiple choices of pins to use for debugging. > For a project or three, $30-$50 USD is expensive tooling for > hobby use. As Wouter keeps pointing out, there are folks who > are interested who have time >>> money. Students and tinkerers > who can live with buying a couple of 555s and some discretes. Now that is an important point. For the hobbyist starting out, the programmer is generally considered to be for ONE project. Even $10 worth of parts is a barrier. Once a hobbyist becomes geeked enough the $50 programmer isn't so bad. The ICD2 is still a barrier, depending on one's spouse. My ICD2 came for Father's Day I'm still thinking that an ICD2 clone might be a good choice for many hobbyists. Unfortunately, the Mchip docs on what the ICD2 will and won't do are not easy to fathom until you have your hands on one. I think that is a big barrier to hobbyists, who might consider a $150 debugger, but are afraid that every new chip they try is going to take an expensive adapter. That isn't the case, but if you look at the Microchip docs and the DigiKey catalog you are lead to suspect that it is. You do need to be a little cautious. Some chips need an adapter for debugging, but for a hobbyist, there is always an alternative that doesn't. --McD -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist