I have no problem with people choosing any programmers. It is their choice. However I will still consider JDM type as legacy just like 16F84. It is my observation and I think lots of the people will agree with me. People can start with JDM. However it is better to move to something like Wisp628 later. Adding a external power supply and a RS232 level converter will probably rescue a JDM in some cases but then the price will not be so different from Wisp628. I do not agree with you that those programmers with PIC inside have only only one-man support. Here I like open source implementations like Wisp628. Even Wouter stops supporting Wisp628 (unlikely now), the source code is available and alternative software like Xwisp2 are actually better. EasyProg from Olin is another example. Even though there is only Olin's pc host software implementations now, People have ported his EasyProg firmware to Wisp628 (EasyISP). It is a pity that WinPIC800 is closed source but this is the copyright owner's decision and they must have their reason to do so. Even those from Microchip are not necessary of high price. And there are cheaper clones available. Again I like the implementations with source code available like PICkit 1 and PICkit 2 (now only in the CD shipped though). Even Microchip decide to stop supporting them, it can not stop people continue supporting them and even extend the functionality of them. Regards, Xiaofan ----- Original Message ----- From: "John J. McDonough" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.hardware.microcontrollers.pic Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [PIC] dsPIC for hobbyists >> It is possible. However I still will prefer to use a >> PIC programmer with PICs inside. I've read too many >> problems with JDM type of programmers using all kinds >> of software. You pick your poison. With a simple (no PIC inside) programmer you get generic, widely available software from a variety of sources. If one programmer gets bored with support, there are a dozen others. With an onboard PIC, you get essentially one-man support unless you go the long dollar approach from Microchip. As long as your provider continues to support the parts you want to use and the operating systems you want to use, all is well. But once your provider gets bored, it's time for a new programmer. Even with the MIcrochip apprach there are no guarantees. At some point they will make a business decision to no longer support your device, whatever it is. But at least you have some assurance that the latest devices will be supported at least for a while. Which approach is best for any individual depends not only on what they are willing to spend, but how much hassle they are willing to put up with, and how high their blood pressure will go when support ends. And that last part is simply a guessing game. You just got to read the tea leaves and take your best shot. --McD > -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist