But amidst all the things a positive note, a thing they probably should not change: their sampling program is excellent, much appreciated by hobbyists. In time that alone might blow AVR and the 8051's out of the hobbyist field! I have a webshop selling PICs (and a lot of related things). One might think this free samples program would hurt me, but I think that is not the case. Free samples attract new hobbyists to PICs (who might otherwise have bought from me, but maybe would not have considered PICs are all), but for larger numbers (10 or so) they will still have to go to some shop. And they need stuf beside the PICs, like crystals, resonators, LCDs, max232, etc, which I sell :) Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: www.voti.nl/hvu -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist