Russell McMahon wrote:

>> You know the USA still has troops in Germany... after 50 odd years. And
>> Germany was one of the "friendly", real "liberation" type cases.
> 
> Actually, with no intention of being ornery, that's about as far from 
> true as you can get.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that it goes... :)

I guess neither you nor me were there, and even the ones who were there
have somewhat different "truths". But it may be that you simply
misunderstood my point.

> When "The Allies" entered Germany it was as storming conquerors of a 
> vile enemy. 

No doubt about that. But, if you want to look at it from a German point of
view (which is what I did when I said "liberation type cases"), you can't
speak of "Allies". That's an allied point of view. From a German point of
view, there were always British, French, Russian and Americans, all quite
distinct, not "Allies".

> [...] This is all historical fact, albeit you may need to read Western
> histories but also read some German war histories written near the event
> (as I have done) to get a balanced picture. 

No contest to any of that.
 
> My point is, Germany became a great ally of the US, but it took some
> years for this to happen. [...] NOBODY was there to liberate Germany
> from anything. 

Also agreed. But compare that to Afghanistan or Iraq. It's been "some
years" since "major combat operations" stopped and both wars were won in
the sense that the government went down. Even though both were declared to
be and were started as liberation wars, in essence, if you look at the
population, the German occupation was perceived (after some years) as much
more of a liberation than, it seems, the two other occupations. 

> Despite what Hitler had done, the Allies policy of "unconditional
> surrender" had driven the Germans to an all or nothing response. 

I think you might be getting mixed up "the Germans" as a populace and the
German leadership (military, mostly); a common error in history books. What
the ones do and think does not always coincide with what the others do and
think. The populace, from all I've heard, had not much of an "all or
nothing" attitude -- mostly because they still had quite something to lose,
not the least of that their lives, and nobody wanted to end up with
"nothing", even though they knew they wouldn't end up with "all" (whatever
that is supposed to be).

> US troop presence 50 years on is NOT as a conqueror or occupier,

I didn't really mean to say it that way (and I didn't), but I wonder how
many countries (including NZ and the USA) would NOT consider an army of a
foreign nation on their territory a "conqueror or occupier". Don't forget
that none of the US military personnel there is subject to German laws or
can be touched by German law enforcement, even when outside their bases, on
private business, and doing such mundane things as speeding. And of course
also not when doing more serious things. For all I know, they are
cooperating mostly, but not because they have to; it's more of a goodwill
thing. Something of a "nice occupation".

Fact is that they are there. Fact is also that they are not there on
bilateral symmetric agreements. Fact is that they are not there to help
Germany, but to protect USA interests (of course). Does this make them
conquerors or occupiers? I don't know... you tell me.

> Up until 1989 such an idea would have been unthinkable. 

You probably are surprised hearing this, but quite a few there indeed have
thought about this "unthinkable" before 1989. I'm old enough to remember
this personally. Check out the Pershing II incident ("crisis" as perceived
by a large portion of the Germans) in 1981 for a starting point. Of course,
much of the German POV you'll find only presented in German language; as
long as you are looking mainly for English language resources, you probably
are bound to miss some points (and thoughts that may have been unthinkable
in English :).

Gerhard
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