Ed Browne wrote: > To preempt James, please answer me offline if you want to challenge my > opinion. I've worked in and around the oil industry for over 25 years and, > while it doesn't make me an expert, it does give me some perspective others > might not have. I'll change the topic line here and try to take this back in a more technical track, because I'm curious about some things. First off, thanks Ed. I worked for Texaco (remember them? Heh heh...) for about four years and saw the inner workings of pipeline operations from the operational oil movement and leasing management end also. Another family member has been there and at other oil companies for just under 30 years, always in pipeline accounting. So semi-recently, at least in automotive buying terms, my wife's Honda Civic that was seven years old -- was totaled in an accident, so trying to be both sensible and practical about our oil consumption we decided the best we could do at the current time was either a Hybrid or a Diesel. We settled on a VW Jetta TDI. Added into that, to me, it seems that bio-diesel, even with it's quirks, is a really viable way to lower our needs for foreign oil and also to put farmers in the Midwest to work here in the U.S. Most blends are still 80/20, with the 20% being bio-grown, and 80% still being distilled from crude pumped out of the ground, but it's a start. It seems to have large advantages going for it: - Pipeline and end-user infrastructure already in place. - Better refining technology has made 100% blends viable for fleet use in many climates. - Anyone can go out and buy a diesel. Today. - Modern diesels with computer control aren't anything even CLOSE to the black-smoke belching 1st and 2nd generation passenger car diesels of even a decade ago. - TurboDiesel engines like the ones VW are using produce plenty of torque, and minimally less overally horsepower than equal sized gasoline engines. And the vast majority of in-town drivers don't need blazing horsepower numbers anyway, but torque helps you get from stop light to stop light with that "race car push in the butt" feeling if that's what you're going for. - Today's diesels aren't nearly as misbehaved in cold weather and have some rather ingenious tricks to warm the fuel as soon as possible after the engine turns over. (In the VW, high pressure fuel from the high pressure injection rails is fed back into the fuel filter assembly and once it reaches around 80F a valve opens to send warm fuel back to the rear tank to warm the entire fuel system, as one example). In general, we've been really happy with the car so far. VW really does a nice job on the overall package making the car feel "peppy" while still producing a consistent 30-35 MPG in town depending on driving conditions and driver's lead foot, and we've seen numbers as high as 48 MPG highway in it. The low-end torque and fact that the engine produces maximum horsepower around 2200 RPM makes it quiet and smooth (it took a while for me to get used to the automatic transmission shifting it at low RPM numbers around 3000-3500). The only gasoline equivalents that could do those kinds of MPG numbers right now are Gas-Electric Hybrids or tiny little econo-boxes that crush like beer cans if you sit on the fender. All of this by computer engine control -- there's no direct link from the driver's foot to the engine compartment, it's just a digital sensor and a wire... the computer does the rest. When the car is cold, it feels a bit sluggish off the starting line, as the computer compensates for the cold engine and meters fuel out more slowly than requested by me, the lead foot in the family, so that the engine doesn't smoke. If you try real hard and push the pedal past the little stop that tells you you're asking the engine for everything it's got RIGHT NOW, it'll poof a little grey cloud behind you at the green light on a cold winter morning or right after start on a normal temperature range day. Otherwise you can't tell the difference from looking at this car if it's the gasoline-powered version or the diesel unless you're a TDI afficionado and looking for the right-rear badge. (Yes, we've had VW TDI fans come out of the woodwork from EVERYWHERE... even the fast-food attendant asked us, "TDI? Coooool..." the other day.) The only time we've ever had it be sluggish to start was after it sat outside in -10F weather overnight. It still started, but it sputtered and strained for a few blocks (with my wife driving it gingerly) until it got a little bit warmer. Additionally, we're in Denver, CO so daily life is held at 6000' above mean sea level. The turbo means that this engine continues to produce close to its rated horsepower and torque well up into the Colorado mountains, when we go up there. NONE of our gasoline engined cars has ever been able to climb the Front Range like this car can. Only friends and relatives driving huge V8's have reported the ability to climb grades at the speeds and endurance that this little wagon can. (Hmm, well I guess one friend's Audi with the large V6 in it also does well... heh heh... hmm, that was a fun ride!) So turbocharging, complete with it's dangers of higher maintenance costs and possible longevity problems, brings with it an added bonus for us here. This is a medium sized wagon. It likes doing more than 70 MPH (shhh, don't tell anyone), and feels like most German cars like it's riding on rails at 100 MPH. (HUSHHHH!) It's not your typical "econo-box"! It's certainly not an SUV but it can haul almost as much in the huge cargo area, and has nice touches throughout. So my question for all the science and technology gurus of the PICList is: Why haven't diesels really caught the eye of consumers wishing to be more respectful of their use of foreign oil? We see websites like the french-fry grease burners (www.greasecar.com) and a few nutty overly-zealous sites about BioDiesel, but it seems to me that purchasing a diesel TODAY in the U.S. is a viable and useful option when they're built like this one! Of course, the U.S. automakers aren't exactly producing a lot of diesel variants of any kind yet, and I'm sure the whole "Buy American" thing keeps some people away from the likes of VW, but Jeep now has a diesel option in the Liberty, and of course diesel pickup trucks are out there and have been forever. I've also been reading that maintained properly, typical lifetimes of modern diesel engines can range as high as 300,000 miles. (www.tdiclub.com is a nice site about all the VW TDI engines.) My family has gotten well over 200,000 miles out of standard Detroit-built gasoline-powered cars, but just hearing that 300,000 mile number makes me smile and want to shoot for it on this car. We may not make it, but we do drive our cars until they're dead or totaled in accidents... trading up cars all the time is a great way to be broke, I figure. My wife got seven years and 160,000 miles out of the Honda, purchased for $10,000 brand new, and got $3300 for it on a SALVAGE title after it was rammed by a Ford F-150 in the right rear quarter-panel and totaled by the Insurance company. It was still driveable when it left here, but she'd been hit 6 times in 7 years, and we had finally decided we'd learned our lesson about dark green cars. People don't see them. Of course, science articles back this up -- our mistake. But basically that car (minus interest charges, taxes, fuel, routine maintenance and insurance) cost us $1000 a year to own brand-new. Buying a new car every few years is dumb, if you properly maintain and repair them. We never had a major breakdown either in or out of warranty on the Honda. We had the usual more expensive items like tires, struts/shocks, and timing belt done at appropriate intervals, but we have to do that with any car, so I don't count them as opportunity-cost loss. One answer as to why people don't seem to buy many passenger car diesels would seem to be: "Diesel prices are higher." In the city at predominently gasoline stations, this is true. We typically pay anywhere from $0.10 to $0.20 more a gallon for the priveledge of driving our diesel car. However, this basically means that our cost is a wash with an equally capable gasoline powered wagon, because of the lower fuel consumption. And when we take trips, we purchase diesel at large truck stops and pay much lower prices. If I had a reasonable/safe way to tanker fuel in larger quantities from the truck stops just outside of town into town, I'd do it. Especially if my vehicle were also a diesel. I swear... I see at least one Chevy Suburban a day with a "Support Our Troops" sticker on it. And a single driver with no passengers. Can't these people think for themselves and find alternatives TODAY besides whining that Hybrids are no good and that they're waiting for Fuel Cells before becoming even partially responsible? I'll close with saying, yes... I drive an SUV. A small one. And my mind was anywhere but "fuel crisis" when I bought it. It's a Jeep Cherokee (the original, not the Grand) and I really do need its 4WD capabilities to get to mountaintop radio installations on very bad roads. It's five years old and has 92,000 miles on it. Oh yeah. My bumper stickers are: A Debian Linux swirl, a "GEEK" sticker, a "Happy Camper" sticker overlaid on the old Colorado license plate style showing green mountains, a Yaesu radio sticker, and a "Geek by nature, Linux by Choice - Linux Journal" sticker, and a Colorado Repeater Association - Support Amateur Radio!" sticker. And during election seasons, maybe a political campaign sticker. So, I've been eyeballing the Jeep Liberty with the new diesel option (which isn't selling well, I don't think... Jeep needs to put some more money behind that marketing engine for that vehicle), and of course, diesel pickup trucks, since I do a lot of hauling and projects that require moving large objects around. One of the possible benefits of the pickup truck would be the abovementioned tankering... those truck bed fuel tanks are awfully tempting, but I'd have to do the math to see where the real break-even was. I guess I have to wait, the Jeep's not fully depreciated yet. ;-) Nate -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist