I'm also using Advanced Circuits http://www.freedfm.com . My CAD program puts identifying text on all photoplots, so freedfm complains that I have a lack of clearance between the dot and the base of the letter 'i'. So, I largely have to ignore the freedfm results. On CAD, I'm using the package from Advanced Microcomputer Systems (http://www.advancedmsinc.com/creator/index.htm). I've been using this for 20 years or so, starting with a DOS based system. It does the job! My only complaints are the lack of thermal relief on pads when you do a copper pour (it does do them on ground and power planes, but not on signal layers). The other complaint is that the part libraries are "binary blobs." Ideally, I'd like to see each part be a separate ASCII file. Different libraries (whether logic families or manufacturers) would just be different directories. Each pad definition would be an ASCII file. Each footprint would be an ASCII file that refers to the pad files. Each schematic symbol would be an ASCII file. Each part definition would reference the symbol and footprint files. Having separate files would make it easier for users to share part definitions (I don't think it's even possible right now). Use of ASCII would make debugging easier when something really strange happens. But, the package is cheap, does the job, and I'm used to it. I've probably done a few hundred boards with it. One program is used to capture the schematic. It outputs an "update" file that includes a list of parts, the footprints for those parts, and the netnames on each pin. If you tell the board layout program to create a board from the update file, it throws the parts at the board creating an unplaced board. You then tell the system to "schedule" the board, which creates a ratsnest drawing. As you drag parts around, the ratsnest follows so you have an idea of what needs to go where to achieve short routing. I then run the traces by hand. There's an autorouter, but I've never had good experience with autorouters. I generally keep both the schematic and the board programs open. When I want to do a pin swap, I modify the schematic, generate a new update file, read the update file into the board program, then continue the routing. It's all pretty quick. Harold -- FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist