At 11:13 AM 3/31/2005 -0800, Dave Tweed wrote: >MicroControllerShop wrote: > > This of course defeats the one-button-push programming, as the second > > verify would have to be done via the PC software interface. > >That's why your proposed solution is NOT a replacement for the ProProg, >which WILL do Vdd margin testing during verify from a single button push. > oohhwhoo, why the hostility? I did NOT claim that the Presto does Vdd margin testing, nor that it is a fully equivalent replacement for the ProProg. I presented it as a possible alternative that DOES fulfill both of the requirements stated in the email by Mauricio: 1.) Support for PIC16F617, which the ProProg doesn't have BTW, so there you go... ;-) 2.) single push button programming Nowhere in Mauricio's email to which I responded was the requirement for Vcc margin verification mentioned. If it would have been, I would not have suggested this programmer or I would have put in the disclaimer that it does not do margin verification with single push button operation On the issue of margin verification we can discuss this until never-never day. Fact is that many people around the world do production programming and verify only at a single voltage. If a manufacturer has their FLASH process under control, it does not impact field reliability. Margin verification only then becomes important when the FLASH process runs out of spec AND the device is operated at the speced operating limits AND those devices' speced operating limits do not provide enough safety margin to the Flash process margins. It's a "cover your butt" requirement put in the ICSP spec by Microchip, for which reason even most programmers at 5...10x the price do not implement margin verification. So in the end doing margin verification is a question of how safety critical your application is under which environment it has to perform, how trusting you are into Microchip's process controls and how paranoid you are about possible field failures. This is something each designer/manufacturer has to decide for themselves. best regards Volker MicroController Pros Corporation The MicroController and Embedded Systems Tool Store http://microcontrollershop.com +1-408-333-9266 Phone +1-800-510-3609 Toll-free phone +1-215-243-6071 Fax -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist