I have followed this discussion because: 1. I am new to PICs and am in need of a programmer. 2. Am adding an ICSP interface to my first project's PCB I have been looking at available programmers and find that the most viable solution is the USB interfaced ICSPs. Since I am well into my first project and have been laying out the PCB, I am making arrangements for a ICSP interface (following the Microchp guidelines). However, I can understand some reluctance for some people, especially newbees, to go the ICSP route, because to use a out-of-circuit programmer unburdens the user from the need to be concerned that their interface is correct. Using the stand alone programmer relieves some of the "newness" anxiety for them. Just my 2 cents. Thanks Vic ________________________________________________________ Victor Fraenckel - The Windman victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom KC2GUI Home of the WindReader Electronic Theodolite Read the WIND "Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?" -Count Oxenstierna (ca 1620) to the young King Gustavus Adolphus "People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell "When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." -Jonathan Swift -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist