I think programming for most pupils need to be made interesting in more ways than the programming language itself, it need to accomplish something, even with small effort. The tools have to be clean, not complex, easy to manouver I seem to always have much more problem with the tools than the language itself... The best beginner system i have seen was the old home computers like Sinclair that was my first. Just power on, enter your program, press RUN. Target? It is always more fun for the pupils if their program can really DO something. I had a basic computer class as high scool level, and part of the class suddenly went of programming in StarBasic more than I intended, but of course I let them go and learn that. So one idea is to let your class program "macro programs" in OpenOffice. For both beginners and experienced, it is quite fun to see your program manipulate your text document when you press a button, and that may be an incentive to do more advanced things. Also it runs on several operating system and is freely downloadable also to their home computer. (and does not cost school anything) Also they can do lot of other school work on OOo; text document, drawing, presentation, spreadsheet, math - and export to pdf, flash, html, and inport/export Microsoft proprietary formats. http://www.openoffice.org http://www.ooomacros.org/ For a completely different programming, you may consider the many small PLC:s where you draw the schematic on PC graphically, simulate on the PC, and download to a small controller. They can then control lamps, motors, or experiment in physics class. I would recommend Mistubishi Alpha 2, Crouzet Millenium II+, or Siemens LEGO. Google. /Morgan -- Morgan Olsson, Kivik, Sweden _______________________________________________ http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist