Okay, here's my take, based on a quick review of the 18F452/8 programming spec...Note that I have never made a programmer, so I don't know for sure if this would work, but here is my evidence... I don't think the LVP pin state is of any consequence. The flowchart for HVP says nothing about it, but it does state that upon 'MCLR/Vpp = Vpp, all inputs become high impedence. Furthermore, at the end of the document, a Vdd setup time is specified as 100 ns before Vpp rise. However, and this is important, NO MAXIMUM time is specified. To me, that means that, regardless of the state of the processor when 'MCLR/Vpp goes to the programming voltage, the PIC enters a known state from which it can be programmed. This does not take any errata into account, or any experience with unannounced "features", such as Olin's 18F1320 discovery, but at least by the book, the PGM state is unimportant. Mike H. _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee. Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics