> We could let Jinx decide when - "OK, if you still refuse to take > notice of my advice I'll turn on the mode .... " :-) Nah, wouldn't do that. I simply can't work when I'm grumpy or pre-occupied with something that I know I shouldn't be pre-occupied with 'cos that'll make me grumpy As you say RM, Olin was in one of those shoot-first moods and really should have ignored the OP. And that was his undoing. Nobody came out a winner. James had indeed made the position quite clear previously. If you wave a big stick you have to be prepared to use it one day. Hopefully any newbies who are wondering what the hell kind of list they've joined will not be discouraged from posting. I hesitate to say "Ding dong the witch is dead", as that would be rather cruel wouldn't it ? ;-) As for not reading manuals and so on - it seems to me that schooling has changed so much that perhaps those kinds of skills just aren't there anymore. I have nephews that are interested in technology and ask me all sorts of things that would be very easy to look up with Google. But they simply don't think of doing so. Until I suggest it to them. Every time ================================================ BTW anyone ever seen the Brit series "That'll Teach 'em" ? http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/T/teachem/ Eye-opener. Modern kids sent back in time to be taught how they would have been in the '50s. Shocks a'plenty -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads