I didn't read all this thread but did get the salient points.
I was thinking about adding my tuppence worth. But didn't.
SHOULD be working, but
Now I wish I had.

Firstly it's essential to say that this is NOT a criticism of James -
nothing personal meant here as I'm sure he will realise. Just a plea for
larger perspective.

So,

        I hate to be seen as being supportive of Olin :-)
But I'd like to be conditionally supportive of Olin on this.
NOT re calling of names etc (although I've seen many people call many other
people a lot worse names on this list - OR just as relevantly put things in
a way which put people down to some extent, albeit more subtly. And I've
seen Olin be far far ruder to people than on this occasion. More on this
below.

Sure, Olin has a bad case of not being able to put criticism politely.
BUT in this case I consider the actual gist of the criticism had some
validity. Jinx said much the same thing, but, of course, much more politely
and humorously. The questioner MUST make the jump to light speed (or perhaps
ox cart speed) if they are going to get any sort of success. (It happens
that I learned microprocessors using almost exactly the approach they are
using with neither tools or advice (let alone internet) to allow me to do
otherwise - but unless there is a very very very good reason to do so in
this age there is no reason to do so and very many good reasons not to.
That's about what Olin and Jinx both said, and few would disagree.

However, Olin used the epithet "idiot". Now, if this usage was set in stone
in the FAQ as unacceptable OR if other usage of the term had resulted in
others being evicted from the list OR if similar levels of impoliteness in
the past, whether by Olin or others, had resulted in summary eviction or
warnings re summary eviction on re-use, then perhaps maybe this would be an
obvious action to take.

Regrettably, Olin has been functionally far ruder to people in the past (in
my assessment).
For one incident which is well below his worst to be the breaking point
without further warning seems a little precipitate. I say "seems" as I don't
know what's been said offlist and probably miss much of this sort of thing
that goes on on-list as well.

But consider past instances where there have been past indiscretions by Olin
eg the WTF is wrong with Microsoft thread.

And on eg 24 August 2003 (when I was in London and therefore not part of the
melee :-) )
Brian L said:

> Over the past few weeks or months, this piclist has turned into a mess. I
get more stupid and useless emails from this list than I get useful emails
at work. But I continue to subscribe because it seems to be the best
resource for pic information. While Olin seems to be the focus of most of
these outbreaks, it seems that the messes are fuelled by other idiots who
just can't shut up. No I don't believe Olin has any right to be an a**hole
the way he does, and the admins should have kicked him off a long time ago.
Useful knowledge or not! Olin is not the only person with this knowledge,
and I'm sure others will speak up if he leaves. I expect and hope it is only
time before this happens but in the meanwhile will the rest of you please
> get a life!

I think it would be more useful if Olin was given the chance to consider the
above option and the alternative.
An invitation to meet minimum standards or leave.
A reiteration of those standards onlist (even though they are in the FAQ).
Maybe a request by admin for an apology on pain of death.
Maybe ....

In the meantime the severe hammering by others, while it consumes bandwidth,
makes it fairly clear what the expected norm is by many.
Arguably, while this is not the main intent, it also serves as some sort of
social education mechanism - as on past occasions some weigh in in favour of
robust treatment of "idiots" and potentially useful discussion ensues.
Preferably in the OT channel :-)

Some years ago a proud and capable (also interesting and useful) person with
fairly strong and unpopular views was summarily delisted for an
indiscretion. Their perspective of what they had done varied substantially
from those of the admin and many list members. Their side of the story was
quite interesting and would probably have benefited all if it had appeared
onlist along with an apology for their thoughtlessness. They were told that
after a suitable period they could rejoin and, somewhat to my surprise, they
swallowed their pride and did so. (You know who you are :-) ). I was
suitably impressed. Hopefully Olin will both be offered the opportunity and
be willing to take it.

An important point not to be missed is the outcome for the original
questioner. If a significant number of people usefully assist him in
increasing his capabilities then he will be well served.




Russell McMahon

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