---- START NEW MESSAGE --- Received: from cherry.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.0.109] by dpmail10.doteasy.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id A6323A5900D8; Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:32:18 -0800 Received: from PEAR.EASE.LSOFT.COM (209.119.0.19) by cherry.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Digital Unix v1.1b) with SMTP id <5.00CC7D91@cherry.ease.lsoft.com>; 1 Feb 2004 13:32:13 -0500 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8e) with spool id 1262 for PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:32:06 -0500 Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin SMTP@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2d/1.8d) with BSMTP id 1403; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:32:02 -0500 Received: from sprucegrove.com [12.151.22.244] by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level 430) via TCP with ESMTP ; Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:32:01 EST X-Comment: mitvma.mit.edu: Mail was sent by sprucegrove.com Received: (from jay@localhost) by sprucegrove.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id i11ISNo28752 for PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:28:23 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <200402011828.i11ISNo28752@sprucegrove.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:28:23 -0500 Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list Sender: pic microcontroller discussion list From: "D. Jay Newman" Subject: Re: [OT:] On Capitalism, freedom & democracy To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20040201160442.006c1ec0@pop.hotpop.com> from "Juan Garofalo" at Feb 01, 2004 01:04:42 PM Precedence: list X-RCPT-TO: Status: U X-UIDL: 371856760 > Capitalism, also known as laissez-faire, or classical liberalism, is > both a political and economic system. Politics and economics can't be split. No. Capitalism is an economic system. It is generally supported by a political system, but that political system can be almost anything. Laissez-faire capitalism refers to a specific period in US history where the government stayed out of the way of the major players. > Chemically pure capitalism depends on a governemt whose sole purpose > is to protect individual rights. Life, liberty and private property. Such a > government has the monopoly of the use of force, only to be used against > people who don't play by the rules, i. e. criminals. "Chemically pure" *anything* requires a government to enforce it. Or else a society composed of humans without human nature or small groups with like ideals. > At some point in history state and church were separated (in some > western countries) What world are *you* living in? The US constitution has a non-establishment clause (basically the government shall not establish a state religion), but even today there are so many laws and customs based purely on the Christian religion that there isn't that much of a separation. > Capitalism is the separation of the state from the economical realm, > except to protect property rights. It never existed. The closest system to a > genuine capitalistic one were the USA from ~1800 to ~1850. Yes, a "pure" capitalism would require that the state only keeps the markets free. And you're right, there aren't that many such things. > Classical liberalism doesn't imply coercion, but protection from > violence. Yes, using violence, but AFTER somebody started not playing by the > rules. The state becomes the nightwatch state. Not to be confused with a > police state. Actually classical liberalism is merely the willingness to change. This change is against the established power (typically held by the conservatives who do *not* want the system to change). Liberalism has become associated with a lot of strange things Violence only enters into the system because of human nature. And *political* systems require violence (physical, economic, mental, etc.) in order to enforce their rules. -- D. Jay Newman ! jay@sprucegrove.com ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy. http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads .