---- START NEW MESSAGE --- Received: from cherry.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.0.109] by dpmail10.doteasy.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id ACE6656023E; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:01:26 -0800 Received: from PEAR.EASE.LSOFT.COM (209.119.0.19) by cherry.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Digital Unix v1.1b) with SMTP id <18.00CC399A@cherry.ease.lsoft.com>; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:59:47 -0500 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8e) with spool id 6441 for PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:59:41 -0500 Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin SMTP@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2d/1.8d) with BSMTP id 0374; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:57:51 -0500 Received: from ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com [24.24.2.57] by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level 430) via TCP with ESMTP ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:57:50 EST X-Comment: mitvma.mit.edu: Mail was sent by ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com Received: from scientiffk65yy (roc-24-169-220-130.rochester.rr.com [24.169.220.130]) by ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i0U0vplK010730 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:57:51 -0500 (EST) References: <000901c3e687$f041bf80$6501a8c0@JAY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Message-ID: <014401c3e6cb$f79284b0$8000a8c0@scientiffk65yy> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:56:59 -0500 Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list Sender: pic microcontroller discussion list From: Richard Graziano Subject: Re: [OT:] On Capitalism, freedom & democracy To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Precedence: list X-RCPT-TO: Status: U X-UIDL: 371856399 I can see that you are politically astute. But you seem to have misunderstood or mis-stated my point that the idea that communism, or Marxism is a good idea but perverted by man is a false notion. The point is that communism and Marxism are inherently malignant political schemes that have no utopian elements. It is only pro-Marxist propaganda intended to put a positive spin on those ideologies. The point I intended is that they are corrupt schemes that corrupt the productive and benevolent elements in nationalism and republican models of representative democracy. Capitalism or socialism are economic models; they are not political paradigms. This is another common error in understanding. Communism. however, is a political paradigm that includes an economic model that extends from a central governing authority, which provides economic planning, hence a planned economy as opposed to a market economy. The recent economic development in China is often misunderstood by some who are saying "look at capitalism developing in a politically changing China." It is not capitalism at all it is planned marketized sectors overlayed on planned economies. Capitalism and communism are antithetical but socialism and communism are compatible. Capitalism is an economic model wherein the ownership of the means of production is held privately by individuals or organized entrepreneurs. The economic circumstances of price and value respond to a supply-demand ratio with respect to the specific elements and substitutes. Adam Smith who was a Scottish economist wrote "An Enquiry Into The Causes And The Nature Of The Wealth Of Nations in 1776, (it is usually shortened to The Wealth Of Nations) where the market forces are discussed. His analogy of The Invisible Hand has received much criticism by mercantilists and was dismissed by Marx who embraced the more pessimistic view if Ricardo's Law of Iron Wages, and the doom population statistics of Thomas Malthus. Socialism, however, is compatible with communism because the principle of socialism is that the means of production are owned and controlled by the state (government). The political migration toward socialism is a process for laying the foundation of a Marxist government (or communism in different terms). Socialism is not compatible with representative democracies that regard private property as fundamental to a free social order. (However, all government sponsored social services are not inherently socialism but some are.) I have read everything you have listed plus a great deal more including everything that Marx, Mao and Lenin have written. I am not persuaded that Marx, Lenin or Mao ever conceived of a utopian ideal. Marx was not insightful he was angry, antisocial and neurotic. I do believe that Dostoevsky did have some insight into the human condition. Having been motivated to write in the face of starvation, later imprisoned with the criminal element and facing the firing squad, surely it must have sharpened his perspective on the irrational mind as well as his sensitivity the human condition. While it is true that he acquired a Freudian like observation of man, he did not perceive or espouse any utopian ideal. There is another Russian author of lesser notoriety, and whose name escapes me at the moment. He wrote a short story entitled NOCHLEG (phonetically spelled). It is not translated into English as far as I know. But if you can read Russian it is a splendid representation of how Marxist propaganda captured the imagination of the intelligencia and illustrates how they were the "worker bees" who fertilized the Russian political soil and prepared it for Revolution. As politically astute as you are, you surely realize that the enormous complexities of these issues cannot be practically discussed except in very broad generalities in so few words. I am impressed with your reading list but I would encourage you to do as much "original research" as possible. Read the original letters, documents, laws proposals debates, etc as possible. News papers are not reliable and whatever you read, be sure to determine "Point Of View" and logical fallacy before you complete your assessment. ----- Original Message ----- From: "yajyaj" To: Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [OT:] On Capitalism, freedom & democracy > >With regards to the discussion on Communism, Marxism, Stalin and > >Moa I can see that the propaganda illusion that Communism, or > >Marxism, in it's ideal is inherently good but perverse men > >perverted it. This propaganda is utterly nonsense. The > > All utopian schemes will fail because they ignore human nature. > Here is a short reading list for students of human nature: > > WHAT IS HUMAN NATURE > -------------------- > Dostoevsky, THE GRAND INQUISITOR (The Brothers Karamazov) > Arendt, EICHMANN IN JERUSALEM > Borowski, THIS WAY FOR THE GAS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN [ > http://www.dieoff.com/page226.htm ] > Goldhagen, HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS > > WHY IS HUMAN NATURE > ------------------- > Pinker, THE BLANK SLATE > Wrangham & Peterson, DEMONIC MALES > Watson, DARK NATURE > Ghiglieri, THE DARK SIDE OF MAN > Morrison & Margulis, THE SPIRIT IN THE GENE > Gazzaniga, THE MIND'S PAST > Dawkins, several > > Jay > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. .