---- START NEW MESSAGE --- Received: from cherry.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.0.109] by dpmail10.doteasy.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id A8C436AB007C; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:37:40 -0800 Received: from PEAR.EASE.LSOFT.COM (209.119.0.19) by cherry.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Digital Unix v1.1b) with SMTP id <21.00CC2BEA@cherry.ease.lsoft.com>; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:26:01 -0500 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8e) with spool id 4899 for PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:25:55 -0500 Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin SMTP@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2d/1.8d) with BSMTP id 2202; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:25:44 -0500 Received: from *unknown [203.89.236.159] by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level 430) via TCP with ESMTP ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:25:43 EST X-Warning: mitvma.mit.edu: Host *unknown claimed to be muvium Received: from CP301356a ([203.45.91.76]) by muvium with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:34:08 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jan 2004 15:34:08.0578 (UTC) FILETIME=[56114A20:01C3E67D] Message-ID: <000c01c3e67c$26e486f0$8400a8c0@CP301356a> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:25:34 +1100 Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list Sender: pic microcontroller discussion list From: James Caska Subject: Re: [PIC:] Process To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040129073858.01554480@mail.cedar.net> Precedence: list X-RCPT-TO: Status: U X-UIDL: 371856274 Hmmm.. You say no high level languages but do you know how to use high level languages? ie not necessarily to write your code but use them to write code to debug your code? Specifically.. Do you know how to use high level languages to build formal contracts over your assembler code? Do you know how to build state models which represent your application model so that any out of model change can be detected between instruction clock cycles? But realisitically.. Are you open to using assembler where assembler is needed and high level language for the rest? Have you got a complete toolbox? Or is your (no high level language) thinking determining your productivity? Are you absoltely sure you cannot high level language 80% of your code and assembler code the other 20% of it? I know I know.. You said no high level language arguments but really.. They were invented for a reason :-) James Caska www.muvium.com uVM - 'Java Bred for Embedded' -----Original Message----- From: pic microcontroller discussion list [mailto:PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave VanHorn Sent: Thursday, 29 January 2004 11:45 PM To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: [PIC:] Process Ok, this isn't really a PIC question, as many of you know, I'm a charter member of the dark side, programming in assembler, on AVRs. However, this question is processor irrelevant, and I think PIC will reach the most people. So here goes. I spend too much time debugging. Why? I know, at the bottom, it's sloppy technique. Let's face it, almost every time the code doesn't do what it's supposed to to, it's because we did something stupid. The question is, how can I improve? I know there are books out there, but they all seem geared twoard large teams in high level languages, and I basically never go there. I normally work on 1-3 person teams, in assembler. This means that I am locked out of a lot of tools in the first place, because they are C-centric. It's no use arguing high level languages at me, I am frequently scraping the last cycle in processor bound routines, and I simply can't pay that penalty. So, what is there, for guys like me? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. .