Thanks to all for the information. My plan is to have some small round SMT pads that I can pogo pin down on to do my programming. I need everything to be as small as possible so I cannot use any jacks, headers, etc. Now I know I can layout my PCB for an SSOP part, order the chips, and not have to worry about not being able to program/reprogram it with my PS+ ! Dave -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads