> Perhaps this group can define 'the' ideal pic trainer. I don't think so. The group could not even define the ideal programmer, which is a sligthtly easier task. But IMHO equally impossible (half of Aleph-0 is still Aleph-0). The problem is that others will come up with different features that you mentioned, so everyone ends up paying for (almost or most or maybe just a few) the features he needs, plus maybe the same amount of features he does not need. And besides that there are issues like one PIC footprint or many (8/14/18/28/40 pin, maybe even 64 and 80), programmer included or not (bootloader), which type of programmer/bootloader, PSU included or not, with or without housing, solderless breadboard, breadbording area, etc etc. So I decided not to go the one-board-fits all route. Check the Dontronics simmsticks and some other designs for alternative implementations of the same idea. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listserv@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body