Here's my 2 cents (3 cents CDN) for the ideal basic programmer: Start with the PICkit 1. Lose: the prototyping area, the pot, the keyswitch, the 8 LEDs, and asssociated components. Replace the socket with an ICSP header. Add support for a bunch more PICs. The resulting board would be about 2 x 3 inches; maybe less if we didn't need the 1 inch square Microchip logo. Regards, Colin _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu