Microchip's ICD 2 in-circuit debugger can also do out-of-circuit programming of all the chips it supports. They sell a Universal Programming Module accessory for this purpose, but it's easy enough to build your own: the UPM consists basically of a modular jack, a ZIF socke= t, and jumper wires connecting the two. Details on one I built, with some nicer features than Microchip's version, are here: http://pobox.com/~JasonHarper/UPM.html Jason Harper -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics