> I'm not in the programmer design business but... ... > It seems like it would be trivial to design the programmers (ref scentence 1) And it shows! > What am I missing here? Just a lot of work, most of which is dull testing work. Maybe that is your definition of trivial? And if you realy think it is easy, why not do it :) And note that there is not that much gain when the PIC in the programmer is a flash, since just two chips will allow the the customer to update his programmer indefinitely. With an EPROM chip this requires either a chip for each update, or a /JW chip, which requires an UV-eraser. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics