After the weekend I see Frank is still yammering so ...

>>> frank@COLLINGWOOD.ME.UK 05/10/03 06:40PM >>>

>Johns kids should now have degrees, as they are graduates?
>And BillW's kids? Are you trying to deny that you refer ...

Mostly ridiculous, Frank. Look, this issue has been expanded by others.
I take no
solace with that. My frame of reference was/is U.S. schools of Higher
Educ.
If you and others want to expand it to "dogs" then have at it Frank,
others. "Arrf!"

> to use a Brit turn of phrase (Please don't assume things, the
>.uk address means nothing, I'm not in the UK)
Ah, but I *was* to assume name from that very header. &%$@! Cherry
well.
Possibly a pseudonym was used. Headers are used by some that way. And
sometimes a contraction may spell out something other, say
"mary@abc...,"
where it really belongs to Marvin Ary. You get the point. Not so
queer.
Looking at my header, about the only thing for certain is from an EDU

>You missed my point entirely ... In the US, you use the term
"graduate" very
loosely ... even dogs  "graduate" from obedience school.
That frivoulous, MOST understand it. I sure it was used as an extreeme
case.

>In most of the rest of the world, the term "graduate" is applied
>only to people who have completed a course of education at a tertiary
>education institution.
OK, now I better see your perspective. And by "tertiary," meaning
"third level,"
this implies higher educ, such as college or university. Got it, ol'
chap.

Further, another post elucidated this point: "Leaving school" for say,
Brits. Applied
here in the U.S. may largely mean a "drop out," for one who does not
complete, as
it is the institution that awards the degree, hence Graduation. Seems
elsewhere
degrees are awarded on the basis of a national testing body, passing
such awards
one a degree. So far, okay, Frank?

Let me ask Frank's opinion of degrees and graduation being a
national/regional
function or, as in the U.S., being done at the institutional level. A
preference there,
and why? I've only know the one system. I'm also aware (of levels of
funding, types
of outcomes by further Educ enrolls.) of disparities between various
state/city
districts and even local differences within some large cities.

The point being that curriculum levels differ, as do community tastes,
it's not all the same.
Some would balk at that, but they should also consider that national
tests for entering
post secondary school are administered and so, I expect, all schools
have to address
appropriate curriculum to meet those enterance norms. Hope this helps.

>Because the term "graduate" is so ambiguous in the US,
> I was trying to make my meaning clear.

Sorry, I seemed to have missed the "clarity" in all that.

>Yes, it is mainly a question of semantics - Everywhere where I have
lived,
>school leavers are those who successfully finished their high school
>program. Drop outs are those who have fallen by the wayside.

OK, but "leavers" is not a widely - or accepted - used term for HS
grads. It connotes
one Not successfully completing (tests too) a program, as doing so
would denote "Graduation."
And really, why should it be otherwise when one can say "graduate" or
"drop out, flunk out"
and cover the whole class. Here "leavers" is NOT in common usage,
certainly.
But that's ok if You choose otherwise, as long as clarified - some
place.  ;-)

>Graduates are those who have completed a degree or similar.
Okay.

> in the US, leaver and drop-out mean the same thing

Sorry, Frank, wrong.

>one can graduate from kindergarten, junior school, high school,
college, university or dog
>obedience school.

These are not in the same class. I don't see the point except for
hyperbole.  :-))

> With your insistence on "degrees to graduates", you're
>effectively saying that all of the above are awarded degrees?

Yes for college abd Univ's.

>Oh, by the way, I have also *NEVER* implied that degrees are awarded
to
>non-graduates......

Okay, kool, Frank. Whatever. But let's keep a good spirit about this.

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Peter, who hopes this is finished!

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