I've just downloaded the errata sheet 80144a, which helpfully explains that ES marked parts won't program with a vdd >3 volts . Thats my current programmer out the window for the moment then. Colin -- cdb, cdb@barnard.name on 31/03/2002 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu