Just a quick follow-up before I forget... I'm having too much fun with these PIC's! (GRIN) After Myke's request for me to contact him privately, I did. I found a problem with a power supply here (problem #1). With that remedied, I finally got Myke's new programmer software to load on a freshly loaded Windows PC. I still have no clue what was going on with the other two machines. Something VB DLL related... typical Windows "DLL Hell". I started through the step-by-step instructions in Myke's NEW software to build the programmer. Since the programmer was already built, and the notes in each step contain minor changes to the original design, I would do a test, stop... see the notes, pull components off the board, start again, pass one test... keep going on to the next. I got a very long way into the tests. The last test I believe is where I bombed out... I hit a wall at that test. The notes said "some manufacturers have different pinouts on their 2N7000 devices" or something similar. Since I'm a relative newbie to this stuff, I only had the one 2N7000 from a local electronics store, and it was already soldered to the board and leads cut. I decided enough was enough and shelved the thing for later fiddling. It was definitely acting like this was the problem. I at least could recognize that. So for someone starting out with the "El Cheapo"... my advice... DOWNLOAD THE LATEST VERSION OF MYKES SOFTWARE and get it working, THEN build your El Cheapo. Myke's step-by-step instructions may frustrate you a bit in that the design changes are inside the software and then kinda "hidden" in the step-by-step build portion of the software. But they're there. The schematic for the "new" El Cheapo is up on his site, including a parts list, but it never really dawned on me that the "new" version was actually modifications to the same board and version I was working on... maybe that's the place for Myke to add some notes... "If you bought the book and are assembling the El Cheapo... STOP! Note the changes below and build THIS instead." But the thing will probably work just fine. And maybe I'm just "dense". I was definitely frustrated but willing to plod along and rebuild the thing. (Glad I had some other parts lying around other than the transistor...) Now... Why did I stop? I had my eyes on (and an order placed) for Jim's Warp-13 programmer... www.newfoundelectronics.com in case anyone reading is another newbie and not aware of it. It arrived recently and Jim, my hat's WAY off to you... very very very nicely done. Myke's is a good job too, but I was just floored at the difference about $100 U.S. could bring when getting a programmer up and going! Wow! It was DEFINITELY worth the wait. For someone who just wants to "get started" and not futz with a programmer, I can vouch that Jim's WARP-13 falls squarely into this category. Having read other posts I know there are others here who sell perfectly good programmers too... no offense meant by throwing a few praises Jim's way... It's just what I settled on after thinking long and hard about what I wanted to play with. The ability to program the Atmel's as well as the PIC's and the serial interface did it for me. (I also saw the "unofficial unsupported linux driver" and am drooling to try it. I'm an unabashed Unix geek and Windows machines both bore and bother me for various reasons.) Back to Myke's stuff... I still find the book to be just WONDERFUL!!! I've read it cover-to-cover (not attempting to understand all of it fully, just figuring out the basics and seeing what I needed to absorb as I go along) and now have gone about halfway back through it again -- as well as looking up specifics now that the "map" of the book layout is in my head. After building a few circuits and programs for a couple of old 16C84's a friend loaned me, the 16F628's and a couple other micros (no 18 series yet... saving that for more fun later...) and other various pieces-parts are on their way from suppliers, and I'm having a GRAND time learning the PIC. It truly is a remarkable little chip (series of chips...) and I wish I'd started playing with them MUCH sooner. Atmel's too... the whole dang technology! I chuckle every time I see a typical "newbie" posting to the list here (and the resulting RTFM from the group... and some answers) because EVERYTHING I've been watching go by is clearly and carefully explained by Myke in his book. Well maybe not the insane stuff that you guys with the rather large brain-cells are working on... but everything I'll ever need for the first year or so! The book SHINES as both learning and reference material. Even after two years (that's what mine says anyway... Copyright 2000), the book is still relevant, showing that Myke was way ahead of the curve when he wrote it! Major kudos Myke! Any technology book that survives two years on the shelf and is still as up-to-date as yours, deserves a pat on the back... I have shelves full of computer books that were obsolete the day they were printed. One *does* have to allocate a lot of time to read anything that's 1200 pages long... but it's ALL in there. At least everything anyone's going to need for the first year of messing with PIC's unless they've bitten off WAY more than they can chew for first projects! My advice new folks? Get Myke's book. Build the programmer to the "new" specs and test with the NEW software. Then also plan to get another REALLY nice programmer like the WARP-13 or any of the other fine products various folks that hang around here sell... to TREAT yourself. Of course, Myke's when built correctly will work properly, especially with his changes to the design... but you'll find yourself super-happy with a good programmer designed to do exactly what you like... ZIF stuff, ICSP stuff, both(!), and whatever chips you're planning on using... and whatever interface to the computer you like to use. And if you're a minimalist... fight with the silly one-resistor programmers and smile when you get them to work... if that's your fun. It wasn't where I wanted to be... but Jim's programmer and Myke's book together (as well as a TON of online research and digging through the PICLIST archives) are making me one seriously happy newbie... playing with "borrowed" C84's! (BIG GRIN) As I type here, one of the first projects I got successfully completed that first night is merrily blinking LED's in sequence on a breadboard... just for eye candy while I'm working on other stuff now! That's my $.01 after Uncle Sam took the other $.01 for taxes... (GRIN)... Thanks again, both Myke and Jim! Nate -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu