Hi Nate, I'm sorry you've had this tale of woe with the El Cheapo - I'm glad that you did find the book useful. Could you please contact me off line? I would like to understand exactly what you were seeing with the El Cheapo in terms of voltages and actual problems. myke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nate Duehr" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [PIC]:Newbie's first attempt > Another newbie disappointment story with the El Cheapo: > > Last week, I spent the majority of my free time fiddling with an El > Cheapo after purchasing Myke's very good book. (I have no complaints > with the book. The diagrams in many cases are exact duplicates of the > PIC datasheets, but newbies usually don't download datasheets to look > at, and the PIC is a relatively simple architecture, so there's not much > else Myke could do there... and having the textual description to > UNDERSTAND those diagrams is worth a million...) > > My background: Simple electronics, lots of RF stuff, and LOTS of > computer programming and system administration experience. I remember > soldering 16K of extra RAM into my first "PC" (it wasn't an IBM, that's > for sure!) years ago... so no newbie to a soldering iron or scared of > messing with components. > > I decided (like many newbies, I assume) that I wanted to delve deeper > into uController hardware and since I have two friends, one who's a PIC > guy, the other who swears by Atmel's, I realized that NOW -- while I > know them, we all talk regularly and all that -- is a great time for me > to do dumb things and ask questions with both micro's. > > I'm not afraid to "let the smoke out" of some components to learn > something... and have done it before. Might as well give those guys a > laugh or two when I call with dumb questions about "why did it blow up > when I did X?" (GRIN) > > My El Cheapo, when completed, (checked over carefully by myself and a > friend who's been designing PIC controller applications for about five > years now, some hobby, some professional contract stuff) is extremely > input voltage sensitive. > > The tests in the older version of the software on the CD regularly > report that the delay line either "didn't return a HI voltage value" or > "didn't return a LOW voltage value" correctly. > > The only clue from that version of the software is to "check the > polarity of XYZ"... yep, been checked. It's correct. Verified by a > third-party looking at my board. Grabbed a VOM and went through the > circuit. Reheated anything that even so much as LOOKED like the solder > wasn't "just right"... > > The error always follows the amount of voltage provided the programmer, > which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I'm no designer... if I > input too low a voltage the test software screams that the voltage > returned from programmer's delay line isn't high enough, if a higher > voltage is provided it screams that the low voltage swing isn't > present. > > Looking at it with a VOM, it's swinging alright... or at least it seems > to be swinging according to the little help screens in the older > software to the level ranges indicated. > > Of course, one major hurdle here is that in the older software, the > board layout's the same, but there are typos in the software. It keeps > referring to part numbers that simply don't exist on the newer board. I > can't think of the reference right now, but the circle around the > component and the component silkscreened name in the picture on the > software don't match the component name on the board, but the locations > match and the layout looks the same. Sigh... couldn't the CD with the > book actually match the board in the front cover? > > We tried it on three different PC's and a total of four parallel ports. > One parallel port was even an ISA add-on card, "dedicated to the > programmer" as some of Myke's instructions I've seen have seemed to > recommend. That seemed to help some but not much. > > The original cable was a 10-foot-long one, and reading some other posts > we saw that might be a problem (gee, all my other parallel devices do > fine at 10'... surprise surprise!) so we found a 3-footer. We also > pin-checked the entire cable as requested by the site. All a waste of > time. > > Our other disappointment is that NEITHER I nor the other person who was > looking over my shoulder (we both work in computers and networking for a > living and I have for over 10 years now) could get the latest version of > the software to install properly after downloading it from the website. > > All instructions were followed, the requirements for Admin priveledges > on the one Win2K machine of the bunch (there were three machines tried) > were done, the VB Runtimes and all that rot... the new software on ALL > THREE 2machines complains after installation about "path not found". > > This is just unacceptable software packaging, in my opinion... (But hey, > what do I know about software products, I remember soldering RAM into > early PC's and all and know a myriad of OS's long since dead and most of > the "latest-and-greatest" ones...) > > The Win2K box complains (as the docs mention) about some system software > being out of date, and even after following the step-by-step > instructions for dealing with this issue on Myke's site... it > consistently does this every time. Various other "hey I've got an idea" > moments and trials occurred over the course of many hours also... just > to get a VB app to load?! No wonder I'm a Linux bigot! (GRIN) Man I > was mad. (Rarely do my computers "beat" me at their games... BIG GRIN. > I even considered finding a bootleg copy of the VB development > environment to install before Myke's software to try to get the VB > crap-ola straightened out, but decided that this silly little programmer > wasn't worth that much effort.) > > So I put together a Tait programmer on an experimenter breadboard and it > works. It's crappy and built on a breadboard with leads running over to > the PC, etc... looks like hell. But it works. > > Had other difficulties finding a machine to put DOS/Windows on out here > in the garage... (I really gotta try the Unix tools... I got plenty of > Linux boxes around, and would happily even load a BSD or two to try... > heh heh.) ... but that's just me. I'm typing this on an iMac running > Debian Linux, from the garage on the wireless ethernet... (GRIN). > > However, my experience with Myke's El Cheapo was REALLY bad. Not so > much that I wouldn't recommend the book, but it wasted a HUGE amount of > my time unnecessarily, made me angry, and in general... wasn't what I > got into this for... a bit of fun. > > Get an F84 and make up a Tait programmer if you want to go > super-duper-cheap... really. If Myke's board doesn't work first or > second try, chuck it on the workbench (or in the trash, but we're all > good little pack-rats here, right?) put on your thinking cap and build > something else... or order a "commercial" programmer from one of the > fine folks here on this list. > > I really am disappointed. Maybe more at my inability to fix this silly > thing than at Myke. Especially after spending a week probing around in > the FAQ's, archives, and other places... and finding a MYRIAD of good > ways to program these little beasties. > > The El Cheapo is living up to its name, thus far. > > Basically if you're a newbie reading the list, I'm not trying to be down > on Myke's book. The book's good. Very good. Buy the book. GOOD > STUFF(TM). > > But don't get too excited when you see a PCB in the front cover. It's > not a very good programmer *in my newbie opinion* and if you're like me, > you'll be all excited about seeing that PCB... "Hey! That's going to > save me some time/effort/money/whatever"... take your pick. It didn't > work out that way for me. It might for you. > > Hearing that Myke is non-responsive to another poster's e-mails was a > surprise this evening when reading posts here. That is *NOT* the spirit > I've seen here on the list so far. Admitedly, I haven't tried to > contact Myke. I figured (especially with another programmer working) > that it wasn't worth bothering him. But after reading the other > poster's frustrated comments, I thought I'd say something as a newbie. > > In three months, I may look back on this e-mail and laugh, knowing that > I found something wrong with my El Cheapo that was 100% my fault (highly > likely, but how can I tell? There's no reasonable troubleshooting doc > for it, and I can't get the latest software even loaded past the crappy > interdependencies and DLL hell of the MicroSloth Operating System, and > I'm clueless... I will ADMIT it freely.) > > I didn't bother even trying to contact Myke, as I figured with thousands > of books out there and probably thousands of people with "strange" > problems with the software and hardware... why bother... just buy or > build something that works... don't bother Myke. The book is worth $45 > by itself. > > There's plenty of designs for free programmers. The $20 I spent locally > on components was high (our local shop gets a huge premium for having > things "in-stock" and if I'd have gone mail-order with shipping it would > have been $12 US, but I'm a typical impatient newbie!), and I'd prefer > to have put that $20 towards an EPIC or more likely, a Warp-13 > programmer now... but blowing a few bucks in the learning process is > definitely expected... > > How many PIC's and other components will I blow up learning? Probably > more than that $20 worth of parts, eventually... and I can always pull > that stuff off that board and use it for other things... > > But I *did* waste at least three days or four futzing around with the El > Cheapo, and that will give me pause whenever I see a PCB in the front > cover of a book at the bookstore ever again. > > I'd have gladly paid $10-$30 US more for the book and more parts for the > El Cheapo if it had "just worked"... > > I've spent much more money on much smaller and less useful computer > books, that's for sure. (Hell, I'm part of a team of people that > survey's bookstores for O'Reilly and Associates and gets free books from > them just because I couldn't afford my computer book habit and a couple > hours in a bookstore a month for a free book is a god-send for a > computer bookworm like me!) > > The $45 (roughly, online outlets were lower -- again, that newbie > impatience! HEY... the local Borders has a copy! And with shipping... > heck, it's only costing me $5 more to get it from the bookstore TODAY! > GRIN...) price tag on the book and the PCB included were a big sales > draw to me, and of course, now I know better... Caveat Emptor. > > Nate > > (Eagerly reading and absorbing all this wonderful "PIC Stuff". > Imagine! A "computer" as powerful -- well, less RAM, and er, um... a > slightly less "user friendly" interface to the outside world... heh heh > -- as my first PC on a 16 pin CHIP! WHOOO HOOO! Gonna have some *FUN* > now!) > > > On Mon, 2002-08-26 at 20:16, Charles Rogers wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Scott Pierce" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:54 PM > > Subject: [PIC]:Newbie's first attempt > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I finally got my PIC programmer (El Cheapo) working so I thought I would > > > > Scott: > > > > You may think your El Cheapo is working, maby it is, maby it's not!!! I > > built and re-built an > > El Cheapo, it passes "ALL" the specified tests in the build/test section, > > programms and verifies > > just like Myke says it should but the simple fact is "It just don't work". > > You should verify it with > > a working programmer to make sure. This newbie has been through every thing > > you describe, > > so think about the El Cheapo!!! I sent Myke eight (8) different e-mails > > concerning the > > El Cheapo and have yet to receive my first reply! I built somebody's KIT81, > > a P16Pro and > > invested in a PS+ and all work very well, just like to tinker I guess. > > > > Charlie R. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.