This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C246AB.A0DDAF30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Olin, that's so on the mark. But I'm sure if I remember if you offered your > opinion on the prototyping board issue. Do you think that hobbyist can benefit > from having more project infrastructure support? Yes. The question is what will that infrastructure be and how will it be supported? And, in the end, will hobbyists be willing to pay for it? > Especially if that support > can be purchased in that $100 ballpark for the Developer's PS+ or the Warp-13? I'm not so sure about this, which is one reason I've been staying out of the PBK definition discussion. It's hard for me to imagine myself in the hobbyist's place. For a professional situation, I'd spend $100 very easily if I thought a "Designer" type product would be useful. Heck, that's less than 1 hour billable time. However, I don't imagine buying one because I don't see what it does for me. It seems to be aimed at problems I don't have. There has been a lot of talk about alleviating the drudgery of hooking up all the basic circuitry around the PIC. What circuitry!? I have many times plugged a PIC into a protoboard to test something. The "basic circuitry" is one crystal, 3 caps, and a connection to a +5V bench supply. This is the part I don't understand about the PICbase. What else would it contain? After that, every circuit is different. A few buttons or LEDs are occasionally (not that often, really) useful. Other than just to learn about PICs and blink an LED and the like, very little on the Designer board will be useful for any one project. Practically by definition, you are trying to do something NEW. Here's an example. See the attached photograph. This is something personal I have been screwing around with. I was trying to get 6V accross that motor (with the propeller on it) by using just one 2.5 to 4V NiMH battery pack. The chip on the left is a 16LF628 that was handy for testing out some ideas I had for controlling the boost converter. The time I spent plugging in the crystal and caps was nothing compared to thinking about the circuit, writing the PIC code to drive it, testing, making changes, more tweaking, measuring, etc. Note that there are no LEDs, buttons, or any other "standard" peripheral that would likely be included on a Designer product. (By the way, this circuit works. It keeps a constant 6V accross the motor until the battery is really drained. Right now the efficiency is 74%, which I'm not happy with yet, but I've got a bunch of ideas to try out when there is time). Anyway, I don't want to rain on your parade. I only responded because you specifically asked me, and I'm not your target market. However, in my opinion, there are two basic mistakes being made with the Designer: 1 - Most hobbyists aren't going to spring for the cost. Even if it might save them some time and trouble, they will look at the price and figure they can do what they really need themselves. There may be an educational market. 2 - Byron, you have said that the Designer should not impose anyone's development style onto the user. However, that's exactly what you are doing. You personally seem to place a very high value on not having to plug the chip into a programmer, then back into the target. I think you're a bit off the deep end on this one. You pretty much ARE cramming a bootloader and in-circuit programming down the user's throat. That's YOU'RE style. Again, you asked. I'll shut up now unless someone asks my opinion again. > I just wanted to thank you for bring several key points to the discussion: > > * Sometimes it's worth a bit of money to save a ton of time. True, but nobody sets out to waste the time. They think they can do it themselves, then they get committed, then stubborn, then they figure they must be almost there, etc. The problem is the *perceived* value needs to exceed the price. 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