On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 01:32:58PM +1000, Sean Alcorn (SYD) wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm back! I might look like a young Forrest Gump, but I'm at my desk and
> being productive!
>
> Run Forrest, Run!

;-) Glad to see you back in the game.. even if your gimpy. ;-)

>
> Well, I've got to say, I just love the amount of time and effort that
> Jason Harper put into his proposal.
>
> You may not all agree with him (of course), but he shares a number of
> ideas that I have had;
>
> 1) I have always wanted to have a series of plug in oscillator modules. I
> think this is a must.

See my other post. Fine for an external target, problamatic for the primary
chip.

> 2) I wanted to see a header to an expansion board - with all the other
> goodies that you guys have been talking about. Be it an Option or included
> with the original kit. I was thinking of a 40 Pin or maybe 50 Pin header
> (allowing a few spare for supply rails etc.) - but I must say that the SIP
> header facing down is simply brilliant and must be considered.

Personally I'm fine with it just as long as the goodies are not optional.
See my post to Geert (jumanji) as to the pitfalls of modular systems for
novices.

> 3) I have seen some negative comments about the multiple sockets - and I
> wonder if Jason realises that I can buy ZIF sockets quite cheaply.
>
> Is there any way we can have a 40 Pin WIDE ZIF socket accomodate ALL
> available PICs?

This point comes down to the core philosophy of the project. And it's not
about cost, it's about presentation and support of the project. It comes
down to this simple question: "Do we have A) a project that is a PIC programmer
that happens to do a lot of other things... or do we have B) a project that
does a lot of things that also happens to program PICs."

It's now a lot less about what functions are available, and more about what
functions are important. It's about priority. I really think that Geert put
it very succinctly the other day. To paraphase: "Users don't wake up thinking
about programming PICs. Users wake up thinking about getting projects done."

Frankly programmers and ZIFs and which and how many sockets to have all focus
on the process of how to get code into a chip. Systems from ICD to ICSP to JTAG
to bootloading have been developed in most part to abstract the process of
getting code into a chip. And since our target audience is a group that may
not be familiar with the process of getting code into a chip, we need to
abstract the process as much as possible.

So to rephrase the core question: Is this a project about getting code into
chips, or is it about getting projects done as efficiently and painlessly as
possible?

The followup question which has been asked before: If this is about getting
code into a chip, how in any way will this project be better, different, or
more useful than the myriad ways that already exists to get code into a chip?
Everything from the PICSTART+, to the WISP628, to NOPPP, to TLVP, to ICD, etc.
If it does what everything else does, then what's the reason d'etre?

>
> On a related note, you guys are all pushing heavily for an LCD. I have
> seen that you often talk about LCDs for around $30 or so.

I've only seen that once in one of Geert's lists.

> But you are also suggesting that this full kit will retail for around
> $20~$30.

Wouter hoped that would be a price point. I had been throwing out a $100 USD
price point or so because I'm hoping that we can get something out the door
that less that a fully assembled programmer (PICSTART+, Warp-13) and is a much
better value than the other prototyping style boards out there (CCS's Software
Prototyper, The millenium board, etc.)

> I hope that
> everybody realises that I can not even begin to look at costings until we
> have a final rough design.

Of course. But in some ways we're like the blind men and the elephant with
everyone having a different perception of what we should have.

Is there a rough mechanism be which we can start ballparking the price of
components? How would one get anything close to an accurate price for an LCD
for example?

BAJ

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