Hello, I cut a whole lot, I hope my reply still makes sense :) > BTW a robotic lawnmower and automatic sweeper/vacuum are high up on my list. I bet you'll make your own pacemaker by the time its necessary :D > I'm so in tune with what you're saying that it's scaring me! ;-) I didn't mean to (really) :) > So wouldn't it be helpful if the common hardware (PIC, I/O, software modules) > were all grouped together? Wouldn't it be really really helpful if those > items were in a standard configuration? Because then the hex file that you're > talking about above would be drop in? > That's what I'm talking about. Yes, with 'required' circuit for the PICbase I was thinking, a powersupply/power LED; some oscillator/ frequency setting(if appliccable); a reset button perhaps & some feature to connect the IO pins & it's as cheap as possible. OK, its directly programmable without connecting to a seperate programmer, no problem with that. & whether it has a pll, serial, usb or firewire connection, I leave it all to you ppl :) In my idea, all the other stuff that isn't required to have a PIC running isn't onboard the PICbase. The novice could plug this for example in a 'level1 educational' board, which contains the features u need to get started with, like some LEDS (doesnt matter what, just single ones, a bargraph or a 7digit display) a button matrix, & to keep it cheap, a header for an optional LCD, & watever you think would be level1 stuff. After this, if he decides to continue, he buys an LCD & plugs it on the edu lvl1 board. The guy can't get enough of it, & buys the lvl2 board, this has eeproms, serial connectors, IR stuff, i don't know what. His learning hunger still isn't satisfied, & he buys board lvl3 with steppers & actuators or watever. What is on the boards is up to you experts (here my newbieness makes me knowing not :) I've just given some examples, If its cheap enough you can put a whole bunch of stuff on 1 board. The main thing is, one can keep learning, with only gradually investing, & its pretty instant because the HW on which you learn it, works & is known by the PIClist ppl. The advanced edu boards perhaps dont even necessarily need to be assembled for sale & can be offered as a kit. For the experienced users, you plug the PICbase onto your breadboard, your own PCB (you could even produce kinda template PCB's on which the PICbase would fit) Here the advantage is, your PICcircuit is already built & you can directly goto the design of your project. When the project is done, (on PCB) you just leave the PICbase on it, for the next thing you buy another PICbase. This way there would also be a great number of PICbase's to be sold. > My MIDI stuff has been languishing on my desk for 6 months now. I've obtained > all the parts to do my monster MIDI sequencer featuring a CompactFlash storage > system. But I get bogged down in all the mundane details of building a target > board to start doing development. Maybe once the kids get back in school next > week I'll actually spend a day or two hashing out the hardware and start > developing. I'll be talking to you again for sure ! :) > I think that we've all come to a consensus that whatever we end up with > was going to have expansion capabilities: a breadboard onboard for quick > expansion, a full I/O connector for more hefty I/O projects, and at minimum a > ICSP programming port so that fully realized offboard targets can be > programmed. I think the only difference is what makes up the base unit. These are details which I can't comment on, my idea is just that the educational junk don't sit on the same PCB as the PIC. > I can feel where you're coming from here. But taking this line is in variance > with what you were arguing above. I can really feel where you're coming from > in terms of novices users wanting to plug and play. But if you create a modular > system where the PICbase is going to require additional components in order > to be usable, you create a situation where it's more difficult to plug and > play. NO, the PICbase has its own NECESSARY stuff onboard. You ppl ofcourse also make a edu board for the newbies, on which the PICbase fits. After the studies, you plug the PICbase into some other project. Its an already working PICcircuitry & you only need to connect its IO's in your project. > I feel that you're on track with the idea but that the PICbase (hey! I LIKE > THAT NAME!) need to offer a stronger, wider base for everyone to operate from. With putting alot of stuff on the same PCB as the PIC, you actually narrow its flexibility imo. With only the circuit to program, run & connect to a PIC on a PICbase, it can be used by everybody, for many many DIFFERENT things, this is about the widest flexibilty I can Imagine. Plus, you can work on different projects at the same time, just buy more PICbases. > Paragraphs, my man! PARAGRAPHS! I'm having a hard time parsing that passage, > A lot like reading Steinbeck's "The Bear". Parawhat ? :D > Let's take this discussion through a quick synth detour. Say you're just > getting started and you have the opportunity to purchase one and only one > component for starters. Do you purchase a sound module or a keyboard? > [ Aside for the uninitiated: a sound module is a MIDI interface only synth. > So it requires being driven from some external MIDI source to produce sound. ] > I would say the keyboard because it gives instant gratification and serves as > a base to which you can further extend to other modules. It depends how you make the comparison, I actually *know* ppl that bought a module as first, to hookit up to a sequencer on PC. This could be a very logical step for someone who comes from playing with only 'tracker'software before, & hasn't got the faintest idea about playing a keyboard. This would not prevent him to make music with a soundmodule however. He doesn't want to become a good player, he just wants to put together some good music, but a keyboard isn't an absolute requirement then. Another motivation could be that the keyboard versions are more expensive. And, if later you still want a keyboard, you either could buy a cheap MIDI controllerkeyboard or a more expensive master keyboard to add to it. > In a modular system I find that a programmer only, or a simple board with > limited I/O to be like the sound module: a very useful component but incomplete It IS complete, you don't have a modular system with only 1 thing, u need to put a few things together. True, there will be a need to build different PCB's for the PBK, but on the other hand, alot more PICbases could be sold. > * The project gets laid out on the Designer using a combination of the onboard > I/O, the breadboard, or if necessary due to insufficient breadboard space > an external target board connected to the designer. Note that at this point > even the external target board would only need the specific peripherals that > are not onboard the Designer. Your system would be re-useable if i'm not wrong., so you develop something & when its all working & testing, you're gonna build a new circuit to run your PIC & talk to your project. Your PBK then serves for another development. In my system, when some idea pops up, I buy a PICbase & I don't worry about a pwr supply or watever other gizmos it needs, nor do I waste time on soldering the same thing everytime. I just build the thing inside my project, basta :) > Money? Or Resources? There's no extra money involved because a bootloader can > be dropped into an ordinary blank part. There is a resource cost because a > bootloader does require program memory, I/O (minimum 1), and external interface > real estate (usually a MAX232 or it's discrete equivalent). I have seen bootloaded PICs for sale on WWW for close to 1,5x the price of a blank PIC. I'm guessing about numbers, but suppose a blank PIC =8$ & a loaded =13$ ? After 10PICS you'd have spent the 50$ for a HW programmer. This ofcourse in my idea of PBK (where you would buy more PICbase's) If the PBK turns out to a 1 board thing with everything on it, the price wouldn't matter. > But as you see from the above design process that there's absolutely no > requirement that the target be bootloaded. I was only hoping that the > Designer's internal PIC would be bootloaded, there it's any requirement that > the projects that roll off the Designer developement line have bootloaders in > them. These are details beyond me :) > > while a HW > > programmer is a one time investment. (ppl may wanna build more then 1 of > > their project, e.g. like a fancy LED things for give-away :) The onboard > > features make the production of small & ultrasmall series a little bit more > > possible, coz components aren't exactly the cheapest things around. > I find PIC prices absolutely unbelieveable! Nothing cost more than $10 USD > in single quantities. One of the best values around. Oh but yes, PIC's are almost for free if u count what they can do, (I was referring to that, I should have made it more clear perhaps) but I'm talking about the other stuff that is expensive. PICs can do alot, & you would need alot of other components if you would do it without a PIC., so my point was, PICs make small series a bit more possible for the hobbiest. (e.g. 3weeks ago in a local store, I had to pay 20(twenty!!) friggin Euro for a silly plastic flatcable PCB connector) > BTW again if you check my development process above, the Designer will also > be an ordinary PIC programmer though I'm proposing an ICSP interface only. > Anyone who wants to do assembly line programmer would need to build an > programmer board that would attach to the Designer's ICSP port. You are using unfamiliar terms for me here :) > > this don't mean one has got to learn everything. > That's not the perspective I'm trying to get accross. The interesting thing > about a smorgasbord (yes I looked up the spelling ;-) or Dim Sum isn't the > fact that you have to eat everything that's there. It's the fact that > everything that you may want to eat is there. So you can pick and choose and > experiment without having to get up and go different places. I don't know either of them, but still the question pops up, do I have to pay for everything? also the stuff that I don't eat ? :) > Absolutely not! Great posts. If you feel up to it why not start a separate > off topic thread on your MIDI stuff. I know there are a bunch of latent > muscians out here on the list. Its still only ideas, but in time I'll be asking your trousers off you :) In the pipeline, start with a simple controller & then maybe a control panel for one of my synths. After that a sequencer was planned ;-D (any1 know a shop where they sell 'time' ?) Best regards -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.