On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 01:50:14AM +1000, Roman Black wrote: > Byron A Jeff wrote: > > > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2002 at 07:53:28PM +1000, Roman Black wrote: > > > I've been having a little chuckle > > > over the way this "super cheap beginners programmer" > > > has now developed into the pentultimate development > > > kit... > > > > Truth be told I'm hoping for the ultimate development kit at a moderate > > programmer's price. It's a really unique opportunity. Plus penultimate implies > > that there will be something better! ;-) > > Ha ha! But PENTultimate is 5 times better still! ;o) > > > However the chance to get a fully assembled and package unit built with > > Taiwanese (sp?) large scale purchased components that will be built, shipped, > > and distributed at cost is simply too good to pass up. > > I agree totally that this would be a truly awesome > tool for a beginner! I do wonder if Sean who originally > offered quite a generous offer of his time, money etc > to source parts and do manufacturing, is now at risk of > being put out (so to speak) because the design spec has > increased so much. Sean has made it very clear that he has the resources and understands the risks. So my game plan is to keep saying yes until he says no. IIRC I got an extremely positive response from him on the Designer concept. So I have no worries. > > I'm worried that project is blowing out and becoming a > huge work load for a lot of people. People are now talking > LCDs and really well written CD manuals/tutorials etc, > this is a large project now. A lot of man hours just to > do good manuals and document all the features. > > There are reasons that commercial PIC developer boards > that do all this stuff cost a lot of money... Under normal circumstances I'd still be in agreement. However we have a lot going in our favor: * While there's a lot of work, many people have offered to contribute. * Tony has graciously offered his "My First PIC Projects" series to the cause. it consists of a 155 page PDF document and 18 project files written in assembly. It covers all of the basics. All that would need to be done is update it for our target and decide on a release format. PDF works for me. HTML is another possibility. Other pieces of software and tutorials such as Fr. McGahee's PICUART.ASM are also available. * Software is available even if Microchip isn't forthcoming with MPLAB. All of the GNUPIC project software is available. Wouter's JAL is certainly usable with his very liberal license. So I don't believe that a lot of software needs to be generated to get this going. * Finally it'll be a self sustaining open development project. Once we get a few out, folks will start using it. As they develop and publish projects, descriptions and code, a larger body of work will be created. I'm pretty sure that James would be willing to let us have some space for that task. So we won't have to get it all done at once. I think that a document that covers the basics and has at least one project for each attached peripheral will be sufficient to get rolling. This is really one of the reasons I've only been focusing on the physical hardware. The vast majority of the rest of the infrastructure is already in place. But none of it can really come to bear until we finalize a hardware design. > > I'm going out on a limb here and saying that there IS > a beginner need for a SIMPLE BUILT PROGRAMMER. Something > with a buffer chip and a 12v transistor for HVP and > costs about $5. Just plug it in and start programming. > And not be scared and put off by a huge thick manual... > :o) They already exists. Finally I think there are categories of beginners. Folks who are experienced in the process of building and testing hardware probably fit your profile above. That's where I was when I started with PICs lo so many years ago. My last non PIC board was a 68340 with a megabyte of RAM wired on a perfboard using wirewrap. However the rank novice who doesn't know which end of an LED is up needs a bit more infrastructure. And it's not just for beginner. I find that quite a few of my own projects gets bogged down in the tedium of wiring enough infrastructure just to get the project started. I find I don't have a box to just noodle with an idea for an hour or so and really get something running. But you know what? That's going to change this week since the kids are back in school in 7 hours. I'm going to wire wrap me up a Designer and drop it into a box. And then I'm going to start noodling. The time for talk is over. It's time to get to work. BAJ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.