From: "jumanji" > erm.... so it's impossible for us newbies to have a goal or even a good > suggestion, & are we just to be ignored ? > thanks. Who said that? Sorry.. Seriously- well said that man..... I have a nasty feeling if we supply something that newbies don't want, they'll still build (and still have problems) with the basic programmers and ignore the development system we're trying to flog them. I reckon this because I built the Q+D programmer and the NOPPP programmer rather than buying the EPIC or PICALL programmers..... Ben -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics