On Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 01:34:33PM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

[ Olin and I agree to disagree. Deleted for brevity. ]

> OK, you've baited me into it.  I know you won't agree with this.  Hopefully
> you can accept that others have a different opinion and recognize that
> agreement won't be reached.

Yes I agree to disagree. I just have one small comment on your list below.

>
> I think every beginner should have a programmer because:
>
> 1  -  Even if you use a bootloader, it is the only way to recover if the
> bootloader code gets scrambled.
>
> 2  -  High voltage programming is the *only* way to reprogram a device if
> code protection gets set and low voltage programming disabled in the config
> word.
>
> 3  -  Even if you use a bootloader, it is the only way to get the bootloader
> into a new chip.  This way you can receive chips from anywhere in any state
> and use them in your setup.
>
> 4  -  You can program chips for circuits that don't contain any
> communications hardware suitable for the bootloader (serial port,
> typically).
>
> 5  -  You get to use ALL the pins.
>
> 6  -  You get to use ALL the program memory.
>
> Points 5 and 6 are relatively minor, but I think points 1-4 are
> overwhelmingly conclusive.

you missed points 7 and 8:

7 - It's the only mechanism available for chips that are not self programmable.

8 - It is the only mechanism under which ICD can be used.

I agree with you on each and every point. The only one observation I'd like
to throw out is that each and every one of the items you listed is an
exceptional situation. Scrambled memory, code protection, blank chips, no
usable interfaces, and resource exhaution are all extreme circumstances and as
such are out of the scope of the discussion of everyday development.

I never said one didn't need a programmer at all. As I'm sure you well know
I have a site that supports a simple programmer and simple programming
software (primarily for reason #3 and #7 above). But for self programmable
PICs it's sole existance is to solve #3.

You're right. I've said enough and everyone knows where I stand. So I plan
to now stand quitely on this issue and wait to see if anyone else comes up
with cogent arguments one way or the other.

BAJ

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