> Unfortunately yes. I'd really like to shut up about it but except for James > I feel like I'm talking to my self. Here's how the conversation goes: > > ... > > me (for the 10th time): No programmer is required with a bootloaded target. > You can pick the interface instead of being bound to Microchip's. You get > a debugging back channel. You can reduce the number of I/O pins required to > generate the interface. You get field programmability. You get plug an play > operation without having to build a separate target board. Yadda. Yadda. > Yadda. Yes, Byron, I understand your points. You have stated them repeatedly. I understand them but I don't agree with your asessment of the relative merits. Perhaps people are reacting that way because they don't agree either. Your stating the same points over and over again won't convince anyone, it just annoys them. They probably figure (correctly in my estimation) that debating with you will just go round and round with you repeating the same statements with nothing accomplished. They therefore just ignore you and move on. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I can see you have thought it thru intelligently. In the end it comes down to a series of judgement calls on the relative merits. We all know where you stand. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. I won't debate my opinion because I don't want to hear you say the same thing *again*. You can't have a debate with a broken record. I'm not going to convince you, nor is there any reason I should try, so it's better to keep my mouth shut and not refute your points. > And tht brings up another point I get to wap everyone over the head with: > with a bootloader, ... Groan. > Anyway it just seems to me to be a case of "We do programmers because that's > how we've always done it." But frankly I'm annoyed about everything about > the programming process. Other than ICD it offers absolutely no benefit to > the development process. Oh and the fact you need a programmer once in order > to put a bootloader into the chip! ;-) OK, you've baited me into it. I know you won't agree with this. Hopefully you can accept that others have a different opinion and recognize that agreement won't be reached. I think every beginner should have a programmer because: 1 - Even if you use a bootloader, it is the only way to recover if the bootloader code gets scrambled. 2 - High voltage programming is the *only* way to reprogram a device if code protection gets set and low voltage programming disabled in the config word. 3 - Even if you use a bootloader, it is the only way to get the bootloader into a new chip. This way you can receive chips from anywhere in any state and use them in your setup. 4 - You can program chips for circuits that don't contain any communications hardware suitable for the bootloader (serial port, typically). 5 - You get to use ALL the pins. 6 - You get to use ALL the program memory. Points 5 and 6 are relatively minor, but I think points 1-4 are overwhelmingly conclusive. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads