On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 10:36:23AM +1000, Sean Alcorn (SYD) wrote: Sean, I feel the same as the bottom of your post. Too much to tackle at one shot. So I clipped all of the facilities issues in the thread and give sincere thanks for you taking the time to respond... > > Well it's crystal clear to me now what the hardware should be now: > > > > * A preprogrammed 16F877 that serves both as the initial target and as a > > programmer for future PIC devices. > > I don't get this. Let me take a crack at it. I'm trying to steer the objective away from just another PIC programmer to a platform that facilitates rapid training and project prototyping. Programming parts is a secondary function. All we need to be able to do is to get code into the part. Here's my list of ways of getting code into a PIC listed from most pleasant to least: * Bootloading * ICD (I haven't personally done it, but the features would slot it here...) * ICSP * Sniffing a dog's butt! ;-) * Standard Programming Bootloading only has a single downside: the chip must have the bootloader programmed into it somehow. After that it's as smooth as silk: * The designer can now pick the interface (serial, parallel, sync/async, ethernet, whatever) * The chip becomes self programmable. It'll never need another session with a standard programmer again. * Usually requires less I/O pins and a somewhat better selection of which pins will be out of commission. * Can add features like checksumming, encryption, and whatnot. I now bootload each and every one of my 16F877s when I get them. Because I can use them even when a programmer isn't handy. A couple of quick notes: If we do this we should use 16F877A parts because one of their great new features is that they will accept up to 100K Flash write cycles minimum. So the chip in the Designer will never wear out. And finally we should put a chip programmer in there for two reasons: * So that we can clone the bootloader into other parts * So that we can program PICS that unfortunately cannot be bootloaded. With the advent of the 18F1320 style 18 pin parts, that number of chips will drop to near 0 for the developer. > > > * The part is proprogrammed with a Wloader style bootloader and a WISP style > > ICSP programmer interface. The box interfaces to the PC via a standard serial > > interface. I'd only provide the ICSP interface and leave programming ZIF > > sockets out of the equation. > > Nah! We can buy these quite cheap. Why leave them off? Because programming is a secondary function. Because then you'll be faced with the same quandry that every general purpose PIC programmer faces: do you supply multiple sockets (8,18,28 and 40 pins) or do you attempt to have the single 40 pin smart socket with the mess of wiring underneath? The correct answer is neither: Do all programming via ICSP. With the Designer all of the rapid prototyping will be done on the product. Programming the new chip will only need to be done at final transfer to the target. So all standard programming is an ad-hoc activity which merits only a ICSP jack, not a full ZIF (or worse multiple ZIF). > > Note that the bootloader/program interface would > > not use the hardware USART. That interface is left free for the user to learn > > and design with. Softwarewise I'd be sure to have a cloner so that the > > bootloader can be transferred to subsequent chips. > > > > * I/O would consist of at minimum LED indicators, 7 segment, LCD, buttons, > > pot/opamp for A/D testing/input, and RS232 serial interface to the hardware > > USART. Also I'd like to see at least one PWM based RC low pass circuit. > > Finally I'd like to propose for the first time adding a canned IR > > demodulator so that IR remote experiments can be performed. > > Yes!!!!! Finally I'm getting somewhere. This is what will separate the Designer from the rest of the pack: being a fully populated test platform for quickly prototyping projects. Some offer the programmer only, others offer an easy to program module (Stamp, OOPIC). But I haven't seen too many prototyper or trainer type setups that let's you get right to the task at hand without having to build infrastructure first. And BTW it'll program your PIC parts too. > > > > Thanks for your comments Byron, No problem. I see that I have both Sean and Shawn onboard. I'll check in the morning as to how the programmer only crowd feels about my "modest proposal". BAJ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.