Personally I'd recommend a HVP non-bootloader approach. After reading the datasheet, beginners will expect all the program memory to be free, all the pins to be available etc etc. IE a blank bare PIC. Won't introducing anything extra onto the chip confuse them? As I see it, we need a simple (cheap) fool-proof programmer. Having a built in RC pair (?on the PIC) and a few LEDs for a LED_blink program is a bonus. Maybe even a switch. That's all I'd want as a newbie (not that long ago). If I was looking for a new programmer now, I'd like it to have ICSP, built in LCD debugging, MPLAB compatibility etc etc, but I think it's getting away from the original aim of the PBK. I'd go for something like..... NOPPP on a PCB with a 18, a 28 and a 40 way DIP socket on. A switch, a few LEDs and that's about it. I'd be tempted to go for two 9v batteries to power it as well. Two regs to supply 12v and 5v... It could always have an AC adaptor jack for later use once the newbie knows it's working. Ben -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.