On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 02:37:40PM +1000, Sean Alcorn (SYD) wrote: > Myke, > > This is starting to get away from our initial idea. We will build a > programmer in our Taiwan facility at little or no profit. We just need > to kow what the hell we are going to build. :-) > [ Edited for brevity... Sean explains that his plant has all the facilities to program, assemble, inventory, and ship a large quantity of product...] > > One last point. I've been around the block enough to know that somebody > > that is willing to donate their time and provide the kits without > > profit is > > going to loose money. > > How can I lose money? I have already gained from help from the list. I > have already produced 4 commercial products that we have shipped > thousands of - due to help that I have received from the list. Why can't > I contribute something back? > While I know that Myke can explain this himself, I'll take a crack at it. Like the rest of us, I don't think Myke really realized the type of facilities that you have available at your plant. We're all used to having to deal with items on the small scale or facing the exhorbitant fees that large scale manufacturers impress upon designers. I think Myke simply wants to ensure that none of us take a bath on this project. After seeing this post, I think those concerns can be put aside. > > > If and when we get something together, I strongly recommend that you > > It was never going to be free. I said from the outset that I would put > up the costs for PC Boards, setup costs - blister pack, box, printing > etc. and maybe even a sexy little plastic enclosure to house it in - > like the PICStart+ and that if we could cover the costs from there, Three comments on this: * First is that it's totally cool that you have facilities to do this! * Second is that it may be a bit hasty to simple mark this as a nonprofit project. In addition to the project costs, there are several folks around here that work very hard to make our list and site work. James and Dale and the other admins are an invaluable resource. And I know that James' facilities do require funds for bandwidth. I'm just thinking we should price so that we guarantee a profit on the sales and plan to invest those proceeds into the list infrastructure. * This is a separate topic that if applicable should be taken up later in another thread. Sean, do you think that there may be a win/win situation where list member (such as myself ;-) can arrange to have small to medium sized runs of product done in your facility? Say from somthing in the low 100's to maybe 2500 units. The list member would of course have to front for materials,assembly, and shipping, and the proceeds of the sale of the units be split in some fashion. It could be a win/win all the way around as most of us don't have access to large scale manufacturing facilities. I'm asking out of the blue because I really don't know the logistics of doing a run. But I have a half dozen consumer grade products that I'd be interesting in manufacturing. It would even be better if it were possible to do small preproduction runs too, say 25 units, for demos and focus groups before committing to final production. Please feel free to take this item to another thread as it isn't directly related to the task at hand. > The hard part for me is that there does not seam to be any concensus on > what the product should be. I'll be worn out before I even have to > commit a dime - or New Taiwan Dollar as the case may be. :-) > > The offer is there guys, I have my own bean counters. I would not have > made the offer if I didn't think we could do it. > > Now it's up to you guys. I originally imagined an affordable "Warp-13" - > I have already approached Newfound Electronics about licensing a version > of the Warp-13a and Jim has shown initial interest and is going to get > back to me. Well it's crystal clear to me now what the hardware should be now: * A preprogrammed 16F877 that serves both as the initial target and as a programmer for future PIC devices. * The part is proprogrammed with a Wloader style bootloader and a WISP style ICSP programmer interface. The box interfaces to the PC via a standard serial interface. I'd only provide the ICSP interface and leave programming ZIF sockets out of the equation. Note that the bootloader/program interface would not use the hardware USART. That interface is left free for the user to learn and design with. Softwarewise I'd be sure to have a cloner so that the bootloader can be transferred to subsequent chips. * I/O would consist of at minimum LED indicators, 7 segment, LCD, buttons, pot/opamp for A/D testing/input, and RS232 serial interface to the hardware USART. Also I'd like to see at least one PWM based RC low pass circuit. Finally I'd like to propose for the first time adding a canned IR demodulator so that IR remote experiments can be performed. Each should be able to be disabled via a jumper so that the user can choose which onboard devices are active. * The board must have a prototyping area. My thought is that it should be a breadboard for quick prototyping. * Finally there should be an external interface socket/cable/card connector that provides access to the I/O pins of the internal PIC And one final point that has crystallized with me: This project is much less a simple programmer than an evaluation style board. In fact I'll take a first crack at a name to reflect that: The PICLIST Designer (PLD or PD?). Here are the bullets about the PLD: * Its purpose is less a programmer and more a tool for learning about the PIC and the common types of equipment that a typical design would use. So I think it's quite valuable to interface typical I/O devices to the board. * It should serve as a project prototyping platform in addition to a learning tool. How much easier is it to get a project going if everything is already wired? Rarely is their educational utility in the process of hooking up components. So the PLD will jumpstart project development for beginners and grizzled veterans alike. * I keep pounding the point that the ideal tool grows with you. the PLD will have the facilities to do simple tasks (LED work) to the more complex (Displays, input, PWM, A/D) * And finally it'll serve as the platform for designing projects independant of the designer. The combination of a ICSP style programmer plus a bootloader cloner means that projects large and small can be facilitated via the PLD. It's worth repeating that none of these facilities will hamper the ability of novice PIC developer to learn the basics. In fact it'll be enhanced because they won't have the chores of building/testing a programmer, building a prototype board for the projects, and the finally getting to programming. With the designer it'll literally be plug it up and get to programming. So the novice can focus on what's important in the beginning: the process of building programs to handle common embedded tasks. The difference between the PLD and other proposed designs, which seem to fall into the category of assembled programmers, is that I'd buy one of them because it will be useful. And that's the point folks: design and deliver a developement product that will be useful at the beginning and will continue to be useful as you progress. Met me know that you think. And Sean I want to tell you how much I appreciate your offer to facilitate this venture on a large scale. BAJ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.