Myke,

This is starting to get away from our initial idea. We will build a
programmer in our Taiwan facility at little or no profit. We just need
to kow what the hell we are going to build. :-)

> I'm recommending against a prep-programmed chip simply because of the
> cost
> and logistics involved.

We can program inhouse. We program from 10 to 10000 pieces at a time, no
problem.

> Some people have said that they are willing to sell
> the kit at cost with no profit.  Does this mean that they will buy parts
> programmed by somebody like Future-Active or Digi-Key?

No. Not at all.

>  If they don't, will
> they buy programmers and set aside bench space to do the work?

Already available. Yes.

> How will
> they absorb NRE and inventory costs?

I thought of that before I made the offer.

> How will they plan order volumes if
> they order parts pre-programmed?

We don't.

> For a small company, it is one thing to hold onto 1k PCBs which are
> $0.25 to
> $0.50, it is another when you are talking 1k PIC16F877s which cost $8.00
> each.

We already stock many PICs - however MOSTLY in extended temperature
versions. However we do stock the PIC16F877s in the standard temperature
configuration. And I'll let you in on a little secret - they don't cost
us $8.00 each.

> NRE for pre-programming starts at $200 not including shipping costs
> for first articles.  If you aren't prepared for them, the costs can be
> alarming.

???

> I am amazed at how often a part that I can easily in North America that
> is
> impossible to find in other parts of the world (the opposite is rarely
> true).

Yes. But at increased prices. For us to take advantage of our Asian
manufacturing, we have to involved from the beginning of the design
process. A DigiKey or whatever part number is useless to us. Once the
parts are selected, we will choose from our existing inventory or source
an easily sourced (for us) item in Taiwan.

> One last point.  I've been around the block enough to know that somebody
> that is willing to donate their time and provide the kits without
> profit is
> going to loose money.

How can I lose money? I have already gained from help from the list. I
have already produced 4 commercial products that we have shipped
thousands of - due to help that I have received from the list. Why can't
I contribute something back?

> For Shawn and the others that have offered to support this without a
> profit,

It's Sean :-)

> I know I speak for all of the list when I say the gesture is
> appreciated,
> but really think about what you are saying.  You have inventory costs,
> NREs,
> equipment costs, insurance, salaries, rent as well as lost opportunity
> time,
> all of which have to be paid for somehow.

Er, Let's keep lookig at the gift horse in the mouth then? :-)

> If and when we get something together, I strongly recommend that you
> come up
> with a strong business case that covers all the foreseeable costs as
> well as
> some reasonable contingency and some money for your time.  It doesn't
> help
> anybody if providing the kits costs you so much money that you can't
> afford
> to keep going.  If you have to raise your price to cover the costs and
> get
> some of your losses back you will get flamed because you are an awful
> person, now asking for money for something that used to be free.

It was never going to be free. I said from the outset that I would put
up the costs for PC Boards, setup costs - blister pack, box, printing
etc. and maybe even a sexy little plastic enclosure to house it in -
like the PICStart+ and that if we could cover the costs from there, I
would be happy. If we get down to decimal points, yeah I might lose a
bit here and there. There is also a chance we might accidentally turn
out a small profit (produce more than we expected, cost prices fall
etc.) - but from what has been said, I don't expect to be hung by the
list for that either. I would expect that there should be a margin for
distributors, and I have no problem with that either.

I am relying on the list help me support the product. There already
seams to be a commercial interest in the product, and perhaps we could
look at one with more whistles and bells later.

The hard part for me is that there does not seam to be any concensus on
what the product should be. I'll be worn out before I even have to
commit a dime - or New Taiwan Dollar as the case may be. :-)

The offer is there guys, I have my own bean counters. I would not have
made the offer if I didn't think we could do it.

Now it's up to you guys. I originally imagined an affordable "Warp-13" -
I have already approached Newfound Electronics about licensing a version
of the Warp-13a and Jim has shown initial interest and is going to get
back to me.

Back to the List!

Regards,

Sean

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