On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 01:38:23AM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > 1. Power supplies (Do I have to buy a bench supply, How do I use a > > 78(L)05, can I use batteries). I would recommend that the beginner's > > kit programmer has enough current left over to power most > > applications. > > 2. Oscillators (don't run.) Ideally, I would like to see the > > PICmicro MCU built into the programmer and the entire assembly being > > being inserted into the application, with the clock built in and > > providing current to the external devices. > > 3. Programming. Where do they find one, which one is best. > > 4. How does the individual get {Insert project available on the > > Internet here} to run. Many projects available on the Internet or > > written up in different books are designed for obsolete parts or > > low-level (PIC16F5x) parts which are not programmable by ICSP > > programmers. > > I Agree in many points with Mike, and add: I still think the easier > way to a newbie come to the PIC world is 16F84, in a "module" with > the programmer. Or a complete lab, with buttons, leds, etc. The > hassle of knowing "is the oscilator working?" is annoying for the > ones without a frequency counter or scope. I guess it's time to step back in... The whole point of this discussion was to create an environment that facilitated the accellerated use of the newer better chips. There are already a million 16F84 based kits, programmers, packages, and tutorials out there. Shawn proposed a package that allowed users to quickly get up to speed with the newer parts. You can't do that with a 16F84. It needs to be let go. > > I'd do what I did to myself: A small module, with a NoPPP and a PIC > 16F84. A 6 pole x 2 positions push button, keying the programming > pins and xtal. Push the button, program. Push the button, run. Be > happy with it. Actually I'd take an entirely different tack. I'd like to see: * A 16F876 or 16F877 with a bootloader in it. * A MAX232 serial interface. * Onboard single LEDs, a couple of 7 segments, and an LCD, each with jumpers so they can be disabled. * A couple of buttons, a pot, and an opamp for A/D experiments. * Jacks for ICSP and external I/O * A breadboard prototyping area The key thing here is that there's really no need to bother with a programmer. That's traditional thinking. the 16F87X and 18FXXX (eventually) don't need traditional programmers on an ongoing basis. Once a bootloader has been installed into them, programming becomes as simple as plugging into a serial port. What I'd really like to see is a combination of Wouter's Wloader and WISP in a single package. Both are chip programmers. Wloader is a self programming bootloader and WISP is a PIC based ICSP programmer which can program other parts. It falls into the same philosophy that I'm trying to get across: make it trivial to get started but have enough headroom that when you want to do something else, the facilities are there. I see 3 phases: NEWBIE: Plug in serial. program the onbard 16F87X part using the onboard boot- loader. So the board is the target. Intermediate: Plug in serial. Use ICSP to program external target. Retain this mode for chips that cannot bootload, like the 16F628. Advanced: Use the programmer to clone the bootloader. Then the user can build a target that exists completely independantly of the original board and is self programmable. Again you don't need to show them all at first, simply make the facilities available and then explain their usage at a later time. I really like bootloaders. They cut the tether of a programmer. They are largely platform independant. They offer a really good independant debugging channel. They are simple to clone. And they only cost as little as 1 I/O pin (which can be user choosen) whereas ICSP will cost a minimum of 2, and those are fixed. > We are talking about N E W B I E S, and although the > higher end PICs would have more "bang for the buck" I still think the > NoPPP is the easiest/cheapest/more bang for the buck programmer > avaiable around. Period. Easy assembly, cheap parts, easy testing (it > gives you the state of each pin, easing the test) and works in EVERY > parallel port I've tested (and I tested it a lot, you can be sure). You've missed the point again. This package will deliver a completed working programmer. Therefore to the user its design isn't really relevant because they won't be assembling it. And as must as it continues to pain me to say it, using the newer parts isn't solely about "bang for the buck". The 16F87X and 16F62X families are no more difficult for a beginner to start out with than a 16F84. And since the whole point of the package is to bundle a tutorial about the chips, any arguments about working code and lack of information falls by the wayside. Each and every component loaded into a PIC has great utility. So the best bet is to start with the chip that has the most features, not the least. The tutorial can examine each feature in turn. Somehow the arguments have been presented that if a chip has a USART, MSSP, PSP, multiple timers, A/D, and CCP that either a new user will be overwhelmed by the complexity at the beginning, or that it's irrelevant because they will never need those features. The latter is definitely untrue as some subset of those periperals will be used in any non toy project. The former is easily mitigated because the tutorial doesn't have to present everything at once. I posit that it's best to show the utility of all the hardware, and then explain how it can be done in software. When doing serial show the hardware USART, then show bitbanging. When doing timing, show the hardware timer, then show how to do delays in software. Explain how the hardware timer will operate independantly of your code and how it can tell you when some time interval has elapsed. I know I keep going at this like a run on sentence. But if you get to an intermediate project doing serial, a couple of timers, A/D, and PWM all at the same time, the hardware is really really helpful. Illuminate the novice to the possibilities. Do not subjugate them to having to code every interface by hand and try to manage them. > Also, a good "begginers' manual" would be nice. Something like the > "projects.PDF" you can find in Tony's page. these are nice projects, > simple as it could be, aimed for the begginners. Step by step, it > will bring fun and insight on the architeture of the PIC. So why not update and use it? Tony has already said he's on board. Right Tony? > > The best books are that ones that FIRST gives you something to play, > and AFTER teaches you how does it works. If you see a LED flashing, > the first time of your life, you will be in a deer joy. After that, > you can learn how you can play it faster or slower, or else light up > at your control. I'd only like to add that any such manual should do two more things: * Extend into intermediate projects. * Show both the hardware and software only mechanisms for solving problems. Think along the lines of the midrange manual with a real project associated with each of the peripheral chapters. Note that these are in addition to all of the beginner projects. It can be separated into to major sections even. But they should both be there. > > And congratulations to everyone for this nice idea ;o) Agreed. BAJ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads