Kieren, I don't want to confuse things but I had major problems getting my first programmer to work. In the end I built the NOPPP programmer. I've been powering it from a 12v gell cell battery ever since and it's worked fine (except when I had a bad connection on the 16F877 socket). Ben -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu