-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > I can't stop myself discussing the question of choice of 18 > versus others, though I do realize I should. Sure you can, if you put your mind to it (; But I understand that you are defending your argument, and that's fine. > By "bad habits" for beginners I mean not using particulaly > 12XXX or 16XXX. "Bad habits" is to start learning something > that is a kind of garbage, especially for educational purposes. > I know you disagree with me, but it can't change my position: > 12-16XXX are garbage from the beginner's point of veiw to > start with. I disagree about those being garbage. I have at home 12 8748s. These are processors with 1k of memory, 64 bytes of RAM, no EEPROM, no integrated peripherals, and are intel architecture to boot. They required 25V to program, and they have almost non-existant documentation. They do have one measly advantage over a PIC: you can read from and write to the 8 level stack. Oh, and they're register based, and they only run at 800kHz Now, those are truely garbage in comparison to any other device I've worked with. If you'd ever tried to program on one of those, you'd be truly appreciative of the PIC 16F series by comparison. 16 series PICs aren't garbage. Just because you don't like them is no reason to go about saying that they aren't worth using. > If a beginner keeps in mind he ever would use <20 pin chips > he definitely should turn to AVR line. If not - then 18XXXX still > is a good choice. If he seems to feel a lack of tools or supply > for 18XXXX let him (beginner) go to AVR. > Do not complain of a lack of supply for 18XXXX! > _SUPPLY_ IT, piclisters!!! You have forgotten the critical rule of Open Source. If it's not there, and you want it... guess who gets to write it? That's right! You do! (Or someone you pay). As it stands, I have no desire to do so, so no, in the great words of Eric Frank Russel in "The Great Explosion", "I won't". You're the one who wants it, stop telling us that we should want it, and go out, and prove to us that we should want it by writing the software to make it commonly available so that we have a reason to try it out, and decide that it's better. If there develops a demand for 18F parts in my area, and no stores are stocking them, I will buy them and programmers for them, then I will mail them to people near here, and donate part of the profits to the PICList, and I recommend that others on the list do likewise, I'm sure James would be happy to have a section on the list's site that says "For distributors of 18F parts and programmers in your area, click here." > Do not ask what PICList can do > for you. Ask yourselves what can you do for PICList. > As for me, It is a deep marasmus to stick from the start (for > beginner) with bank switching, too poor command set, port > latching etc when there is 18XXXX or AVR on the market for > lower prices without those stupid drawbacks. > I don't see why 18XXXX is much complex then 12-16XXX to > start with. Many beginners choosed "complex" AVR and are > happy with it, as you see. > The fact that there still exist market for 12-16XXX has no > relation to beginner. > For non beginner: Nobody would agree to pay more for a job > for just using PICs in a project. With 12-16XXX one can't reach > productivity and sometime quality as with AVR. So one is to > admit to lower wages. If you like the AVR better, why are you recommending the 18F? > PS: What I'm doing by these postings translated from russian > sounds like (15 years ago): "Agitate for communism". :-) "Do not ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" - --Brendan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBPUss2gVk8xtQuK+BEQI7fgCeLu9DpSb8brD0P5qEYpTRY79GOBcAniGf C5IoD5yuLHy+MNwSXjeau1jh =s9Dk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.