-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > Beginners should learn the right way from the start before > > bad habits become difficult to break. > . > . > Great words. Therefore I contended that beginners should > start with PIC18XXXX line. > The use of a chip that does the job is not a bad habit. I contend that intermediate users should use 12CXXX, 16F87X, and 18FXXX. Each according to the needs of the project. One must be versatile to be effective. If you get to cushioned by the use of an 18F part, what are you going to do when you need to use an 8-pin MCU, and find that the 12C508 lacks half the instructions you're used to? Better to be aware of the device differences from the start and learn to program for all of them. 16F provides a good starting point. It shows you that you need to appreciate the advantages of the 18F parts, but means that you aren't stuck using a 10kg sledge hammer where a tack hammer would do because you don't know the finesse required to do the job witht he tack hammer. We've mentioned the huge problem with the 18F parts before. For your benifit, I will elaborate again. The problem is availability. Not the availability of the chips themselves, but the availability of the tools required to use them. AFAIK there are very few easily built programmers for the 18F series (CUMP will change that, but it's not done yet). There are several programmers that can handle the job, but don't have the software support to actually be able to pull through. You see, the programming algorithms for the 18F parts are different enough from those for the 16F parts that they are not interchangeable. If *you* want to write that software, the go right ahead, but until someone does, there is going to be a real problem with using 18F parts *especially* for beginners. Next, as Byron went to such lengths to point out, you are ignoring the fact that beginners will not use a chip that has very few beginner's circuits already built for it. If you want beginners to start using 18F parts, then you'd better either go build some 18F beginner projects, and document them heavily, or convice everyone here to switch all their beginner project code to 18F code. If a google search returns an equal number of 16F627 links as 16F84 links, then beginners might choose the 16F627. If there are 2 links way down at the bottom for the 18F452, then like as not, they'll be choosing either the 84 or the 627. So, once again, there's a very small likelyhood that beginners will be using the 18FXXX parts in the near future. If you take steps to correct it, then maybe that will change, but for now, it's a stable point. Furthermore, I can buy the 16F84, and the 16F877 at Future Active (commonly known as Active around here). There are likely others availble via order, but those are the ones hanging from little pegs in the store (no shelves there, sorry Peter). If I had a choice between the 18F452 and the 16F877, I'd likely choose the 18F452. I don't seem to have that choice, due to lack of programmers and lack of supply. If I make a big order to digikey sometime soon, I might order one or two 18F parts just to play with, but for now, all my heavy design use will use 16F parts because I can program and get ahold of those easily. Lastly, we are lucky to have someone like Byron on this list. He is a great help to many people when they come here asking questions. Saying that we aren't his students in a lecture, and could he please shorten his posts so that you can understand them is not a pleasant way to keep helpful people here. Please note that when his posts are directed at beginners, they are matter-of-fact, concise and well thought out. When his posts are directed at list over what is in effect a point of methodology, he elaborates more so that those who read his post unmderstand where he is coming from and how he got there. I can't see any reason that he should change that. I cannot elaborate more on this subject without the possibility of my becomming personally offensive to one or more parties, so I will stop here. If you wish me to explain further, contact me off-list. - --Brendan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBPUr7JgVk8xtQuK+BEQIh0gCg3/4bA5nZarg4wW86njYg+mJn5B8AoMTB jfNSVnE/W4OuvK+VO0fGEZGc =B4mR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.