On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 08:57:37AM -0600, shawnmulligan wrote: > As a beginner, I recommend that you don't just rely on an 'expert' opinion > on which part is right for you. Rather, do Google searches for "16F84 > beginner projects", "16F628 beginner projects", and "16F877 beginner > projects" and make a decision based on what you read and what you can > understand at this point. You are likely to find that the abundance of > easy-to-understand, beginner material will point you in the direction of the > 16F84. Sure the 16F84 may cost you a couple of bucks more, and offer fewer > features than other PIC microcontrollers, but you will find it easy to use > and that's important for a beginner. If you choose the 16F628 or 16F877 and > come to this list asking for help, you will be greated with "Read The > Manual." and that probably won't be much help. Let's take it point by point: * As a beginner, not heeding the advise of someone who is more experienced than you is a foolish venture. They've already been where you are now and their experience is valuable. * As I have pointed out over and over and over and over again, the 16F84 has the weight of inertia on its side. There's more books, tutorial, and projects using it because it's been around for nearly 8 years, whereas the others have come on the scene more recently. * The vast majority of the material that applies to the 16F84 can be used with the newer chips. It's not a situation like the 18F series parts where there's a marked difference in the way that code gets done. 16F84 code runs on 16F62X and 16F87X parts virtually unchanged. Everyone seems to be arguing that this virtual aspect is too difficult for beginners to understand. When I was first starting with PICs in 1995 or so, I ran into exactly the same problem that I'm descrbing between the 16C84 and the 16C71, which had A/D converters on PORTA. It required 2 extra lines of code to turn them off. I just can't see why this is such a big deal. * Easy to use is a highly debatable topic: - The programmer is more difficult. Novice users will build their own programmers. Show me a 16F84 programmer that's as simple as the TLVP. - The last of features on a 16F84 quickly introduces complexity in programming. Not having a hardware USART means having to bit bang. Not having multiple timers means having to juggle the single 8 bit timer, counting overflows, and tracking multiple virtual timers off the single real one. Not having a hardware CCP module means adding code to capture the length of time of a pulse or doing lower frequency PWM by hand. Not having enough memory (program, RAM, and data EEPROM) causes headaches once one gets past the toy project. Not having an internal oscillator means that one must deal with the oscillator issue immediately instead of being able to put it off until a later time. Finally it's all moot anyway because the other chips can run exactly what the 16F84 does. It's just that when it's time to take the second step the others are ready to step up, while the 16F84 struggles to keep up. * Honestly when is the last time anyone here has been 'greeted' with a RTFM? This is the most useful and helpful forum I know. While I may suggest that a new user read/search the archives, turning them away isn't in this list's makeup. All in all I like Brendan's argument the best. Recommending the 16F84 nowadays is like recommending a 486 or Pentium 90 to a new computer buyer. The difference is that 16F84's are still available and the others are long gone from the shelves. They were great in their time, but their time has passed > > Once you have learned the basics of microcontrollers, you'll want to move up > the a more richly featured, higher-complexity chip -- maybe even the Texas > Instruments MSP430 series. Ok Shawn, you just opened a door. So tell us about the MSP430. Specifically: * Features * Cost * Availbility * Packaging * Development support. And specifically for me: Linux development support * And most importantly: what does it offer that PICs do not? What is the value add that make it worth considering in projects? I see that my advocacy of the newer PICs has ruffled some feathers. Sorry. But I'm looking past the blinky LED and towards the intermediate projects that current novices will very quickly want to get to. At that level each and every feature of the 16F628/16F87X/18FXXX parts simplifies the life of the designer. As a designer for nearly any project if I have 16C84/16F84/16F84A parts and 16F628 parts sitting on my shelf (and I actually have at least one of each BTW) I would almost always pull the 16F628 for a new design. So why would I recommend to a novice a part that I in fact would not use? Bad habits are difficult to get rid of. It's always best not to start them in the first place. And the 16F84's lack of features creates bad design habits that are difficult to get rid of. BAJ > > Have fun, Shawn > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roman Black" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 3:04 AM > Subject: Re: [PIC]: selecting your first > > > > Wouter van Ooijen wrote: > > > > > NOTES FOR A BEGINNER: SELECTING YOUR FIRST PICMICRO > > > > > > 1. The 16c84, 16f84 and 16f84a are obsolete. Don't use them, unless you > > > have a *very* good reason, which could for instance be: > > > * you can not get hold of any other chip > > > * you are building an exsiting design > > > * your design needs to run at 5.5 .. 6.0 Volt (16x84 only) > > > > and; > > * beginners buy old-stock developer kits, with F84, > > test PCB and programmer etc > > * the F84 is the most prolific PIC for beginner code > > samples and projects, which will work straight from > > the net, using F628 requires modifying EVERY .asm > > file before they can be used to flash a led, etc! > > * the beginner's friend probably has surplus F84's > > to give a few away (especially now they are obsolete) > > * the sheer simplicity of F84 is worth something to > > a beginner. I would suggest they have both F84 and > > F628, but use the F84 for everything they can. > > * F84 programs TWICE as quick, 18 secs vs 36 secs, > > very important for beginners who are re-programming > > every minute or so... > > ;o) > > -Roman > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics