> But do you want all that support ! 450 bucks dosn't sound that cheap if all you want is a PIC programmer. You can pick one up ready built for less than 50 and I would think you can build one for next to nothing. The only part you probably don't have lying around is a ZIF socket And reconsider whether you want ex-circuit programming: a ZIF a socket is expensive, and in-circuit programming is far easier (at least while devloping) Wouter van Ooijen -- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl Jal compiler, Wisp programmer, WLoader bootloader, PICs kopen -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.