Nice summary of how labor and conditions evolved here in the USA over the last 200 hundred years Lawrence ... It seem that most of the socialists on this list think these changes occur instantly and as if the 'norm' has been THE NORM since time immortal - and that ALL societies ought to be changed NOW, as if a switch could be thrown and all things made 'right'. And that seems to be how TV news seems to portray it too ... Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Lile" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [OT]: $1-a-day wages > All interesting points, gentlemen. > > (I Don't think there are any women in on this thread yet..) > > Well, the world is a dynamic place. Nike changed a lot of things in their > factories in response to all the criticism, yet people still stigmatize Nike > because of actions that may have been rectified years ago. Meanwhile, most > *everything else* you buy is actually manufactured in China, often under > poor conditions. Nike's competitors all enjoy the same apalling conditions > that propmted protest, yet no one is squawking. > > The last time I was in China (a few weeks ago) the factory manager told me > that the Chinese government had recently mandated a 40 hour work week, and > had begun to withhold social security taxes, meaning they expect to have a > surplus of elderly retirees at some point and a rudimentary social welfare > system. This is BIG news, in 1997 when I was there, factories worked people > 12 hours a day 6 days a week, and people who got their hands cut off in > presses had to beg. > > I have PHOTOS of kids in factories, this particular child was not actually > working, just hanging around rotating machinery, hot presses and drop > forging machines breathing in toxic fumes. > > Believe me, there is little in the way of consumer electronics that is not > made in Korea or China, sometimes in conditions you'd shudder to think > about. > > Yes, it is appalling that there are a billion people who make less than $1 a > day, and another billion making less than $2 a day. Those people are locked > out of this discussion here, for instance. Their ticket out, unfortunately, > is the rapid industialization happening in Shenzhen, China, and elsewhere, > with accompanying costs of environmental problems. It's gonna get worse > before it gets better. > > --lawrence > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Russell McMahon" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 10:30 AM > Subject: Re: [OT]: $1-a-day wages > > > > > It interesting that Nike moved from Korea to Indonesia. This > > > move can be looked at as a success story, Korea has now moved > > > to a different state of industrialization (and debt). It's people > > > have a better education and standard of living than they had > > > a generation ago. The failure of companies to invest at all in > > > third world countries has much more serious consequences in > > > human terms > > > > etc > > > > We've covered all this rather thoroughly some while ago (about 6 months > > ago?). > > One can always make some sort of a case for benignly moving one's > production > > fron the US to Mexico to Korea to Indonesia & China & Phillippines to > > Bangladesh & ??? to ????????? etc. And yes, there are alays people who are > > happy to work for the $1 a day or whatever the going rate is for > > sub-subsistence level living. > > > > But the reality, which is what the Nike protestors you had to wade through > > were aware of, regardless of whatever clever accounting that can be done > to > > make th4e case look benign, is that we (including me of course) are living > > on the forced labour of others who in the vast majority of cases have > every > > bit as much "right" to a reaosnable return for their llabour as anyone in > > the "devloped" countries do. > > > > While the putative $1 a day will but far more than it would in Western > > economies, and is therefore misleading as a measure of its true value to > the > > recipient, there are many essential things that it will not buy. It goes > > with back breaking (or body destroying) working conditons, unconscionable > > working hours, child slavery (by any standard that you would set if they > > were YOUR children involved) and inadequate resources to address either > > resultant chronic disease and long term results of the working conditions. > > Even in countries where the conditions are "half acceptable" (such as eg > > Filipino workers in Taiwan) the pay for work and working conditions would > be > > utterly unconscionable in a Western society. Quite why we feel morally > > entitled to inflict the cost of our living standards on other human beings > > > in such a manner is utterly beyond me. I'm well aware that many have no > > qualms in doung so and will argue their right to do so. Many more (rarher > > like me) will largely live on the results of the misery and suffering of > > others with very little thought or care. > > > > > > > > Russell McMahon > > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? 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