Make sure you entered your email ok, as it is an automated response. James -----Original Message----- From: pic microcontroller discussion list [mailto:PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of personal Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 4:00 AM To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: hi, I regitered on your web page, 20 minutes ago, but no answering.... gxu15@aicompro.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Caska" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [PIC]: Java for PICs - Warning James Rambles a bit here > Actually Dale, I appologise as I didn't fully read your email. > > Yes, I agree a bytecode interpreter and 100% java certified JVM are just not > going to happen on a PIC, well maybeee a PIC18FXX2. > > I have spent as you might imagine an aweful lot of time thinking about this, > and I believe pure java is going to struggle to get 'down' to the size and > cost we are used to seeing in 8 bit volume applications for at least 5 to 10 > years. The best we have seen are about 500K RAM (TINI) and really SLOW.. or > 32bit applications at costs in the order of $50/unit. THis is like an order > of magnitude away from the $5 or (way) less for volume PIC applications. > > Consider that 8 bit processors that dominate have been around for several > decades and the industry giants like microchip/intel/atmel/motorola are not > going to want to give up their market position easily I really think 'pure' > java is going to struggle to get 'small enough' (at least at the > microcontroller end of town) > > This is exactly why I developed micro-java (uj) It is not pure java, it is > not 100% certified RTJ BUT it is the best of the comprimises that still keep > the spirit of java. > > - You compile with Javac (or regular java tools ) > - The key stuff is supported and more will be supported as it matures. > * garbage collection - Seriously without garbage collection java is just > another syntax for C > * Interfaces* - Some limits > * Inheritance* - Some limits > * Objects > * Events - The event model is particularly important, The abstract > peripheral toolkit is an entire discussion in its own right > * Exceptions - Create robust implementations using exceptions > * Re-entry - Yes even recursion is supported (although you MUST be careful > of the available stack) > * Pure assembly implementation, yes as dale suggested, forget bytecode > interpretation pure assemble is much much leaner and faster (but much harder > to implement) > * Remote Method Invokation - This is seriously powerful stuff > * Programmable over the net* - Well it will be > > Look, getting into java is not easy, you have to learn a new way of > thinking. Java I feel has really struggled in really small embedded because > to be honest the user base is still 'C' minded you think about different > things when you program in java than C so of course people will resist > something new. > > Yes, micro-java is ambitious but to be honest I think pure java is going to > have a heck of a time beating micro-java implementations on existing > microcontrollers especially when microchip start feeling threatened by java, > do you think they are going to react.. of course they are. > > To me it is a real opportunity for the PIC and PIC community to embrace > micro-java, and to give themeselves and the PIC microcontroller a head start > in this emerging market. There are countless opportunities for you all in > first mover java, stuff like hardware objects ujSTICK's, re-useable > libraries, generic user interfaces (myXGuide), come-on get excited about > something already ;-) > > I have worked almost 2 years full time on micro-java and nearly 5 years near > full time on the Virtual Breadboard application which is only just now > starting to mature. micro-java is to Virtual Breadboard as is Visual Basic > Virtual Machine is to Visual Basic development environment. > > THe ujVM is not yet available,(so you may still be understandably sceptical) > but is simulated (yes I am my own biggest user of my virtual breadboard > sofware) and I expect to demo it at the the PICMASTERS which I hope to > attend end of July :-) and with a bit of luck raise an eyebrow at microchip > (although I wonder sometimes if they actually have a pulse.. chuckle > chuckle ) > > Anyhow, Virtual Breadboard, Version 2 BETA, http://www.virtualbreadboard.com > is freely available now for download (you need to register but it only takes > a minute) and contains more information about the micro-java virtual machine > including a real-time emulator and a few example applications. You can > learn to program on a virtual ujVM using java and I am adding new abstract > peripherals all the time so it doesn't even cost you anything to tinker > around and learn. > > I hope this little ramble might excite some people, or not, you can just go > back to business as usual and ignore java but I can tell you it wont go away > :-) > > Best regards to all you PICSTERS, > > James Caska > mailto:caska@virtualbreadboard.com > > P.S Virtual Breadboard BETA Build 2 this weekend - includes schematics and > PCB generation.. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pic microcontroller discussion list > [mailto:PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Dale Botkin > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:21 AM > To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: [PIC]: Java for PICs > > > I'd be interested in the performance of such a thing. Of course you'd > doubtless have hordes of Java purists railing at the non-standard aspects > of anything crammed down into a PIC-sized space if it didn't meet Sun > Java certification 100%... 8-) > > I'd bet a more workable approach would be a Java compiler that generated > native PIC code. Yes, I know that's the whole point of Java, yadda yadda, > but I have grave doubts as to the possibility of getting anything > wpproximating a useful bytecode interpreter into that small a space, using > that restrictive a set of memory "features". > > Dale > -- > "Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that > curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly." > - Arnold Edinborough > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.